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	<title>Comments on: Death On The ER Floor &#8211; Coming To A Hospital Near You</title>
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	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: Life in the Fast Lane &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Primum non nocere</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3958</link>
		<dc:creator>Life in the Fast Lane &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Primum non nocere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 03:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3958</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] recent blogs have discussed or linked to articles about patients who have died in ED waiting rooms. Thanks to SymTym for some other examples - from Sacramento, and more evidence of problems with ER [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] recent blogs have discussed or linked to articles about patients who have died in ED waiting rooms. Thanks to SymTym for some other examples &#8211; from Sacramento, and more evidence of problems with ER [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yet Another Patient Dies Waiting For Emergency Care &#171; WhiteCoat Rants</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3957</link>
		<dc:creator>Yet Another Patient Dies Waiting For Emergency Care &#171; WhiteCoat Rants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3957</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] it&#8217;s Beatrice Vance Then it&#8217;s Esmin Green Just today, Kevin MD linked to another story about Brian Sinclair who died in Winnipeg after [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it&#8217;s Beatrice Vance Then it&#8217;s Esmin Green Just today, Kevin MD linked to another story about Brian Sinclair who died in Winnipeg after [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rating the Insurers &#171; WhiteCoat Rants</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3956</link>
		<dc:creator>Rating the Insurers &#171; WhiteCoat Rants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3956</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] is it just a coincidence that a hospital New York was in the news for some bad patient outcome not too long [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is it just a coincidence that a hospital New York was in the news for some bad patient outcome not too long [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sonya lazarevic md</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3955</link>
		<dc:creator>sonya lazarevic md</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3955</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really enjoyed your post! I wanted to comment in particular on the family dynamics portion of this case....

It is true that people who immigrate to the US may not &#039;see&#039; their family for long periods of time, its unusual, however, for them to not be in touch at all.  I find people in NYC Caribbean communities to maintain very close family ties, but then again, exceptions occur....  Its my brief experience as a Psych resident,  that people with chronic mental illness lose contact with their families.  its my observation that the more chronically disorganized and psychotic a patient becomes, the less family support they have.  Its understandable.  Family often do not have the understanding or resources to manage mental illness.

I do all my calls in the CPEP, which is a specialized psych ED, any my hospital.  Comments about  cots being available for psych patients as bad thing is uninformed.  If my attending or I need to move people out of the CPEP because the pt doesnt belong there or needs to be admitted, they are moved.  You get your share of malingerers, but in genreal most people come because they need to be there.  Cots are needed and well utilized.  Sometimes patients must rest or are sedated and therefor must be reclined.

I agree with the previous comment, if the pt was white (even of moderate income), this attention would have different meaning to it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed your post! I wanted to comment in particular on the family dynamics portion of this case&#8230;.</p>
<p>It is true that people who immigrate to the US may not &#8216;see&#8217; their family for long periods of time, its unusual, however, for them to not be in touch at all.  I find people in NYC Caribbean communities to maintain very close family ties, but then again, exceptions occur&#8230;.  Its my brief experience as a Psych resident,  that people with chronic mental illness lose contact with their families.  its my observation that the more chronically disorganized and psychotic a patient becomes, the less family support they have.  Its understandable.  Family often do not have the understanding or resources to manage mental illness.</p>
<p>I do all my calls in the CPEP, which is a specialized psych ED, any my hospital.  Comments about  cots being available for psych patients as bad thing is uninformed.  If my attending or I need to move people out of the CPEP because the pt doesnt belong there or needs to be admitted, they are moved.  You get your share of malingerers, but in genreal most people come because they need to be there.  Cots are needed and well utilized.  Sometimes patients must rest or are sedated and therefor must be reclined.</p>
<p>I agree with the previous comment, if the pt was white (even of moderate income), this attention would have different meaning to it.</p>
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		<title>By: EE</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3954</link>
		<dc:creator>EE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great, I don&#039;t care about the details. Put them in a hallway, cots in a waiting room is a bad idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great, I don&#8217;t care about the details. Put them in a hallway, cots in a waiting room is a bad idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Teresa</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3953</link>
		<dc:creator>Teresa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3953</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[EE: &lt;i&gt;Providing cots for a patient to lay down on in the waiting room is a bad idea.&lt;/i&gt;

From the article: &lt;i&gt;a woman in a &lt;b&gt;hospital gown&lt;/b&gt; in the waiting area of the psychiatric emergency room&lt;/i&gt;

She was already a patient.  It was a psych emergency room.  You are knee-jerking about abuse of regular emergency rooms.

Did you read the article (DB Medical Rants; Happy Hospitalist) about long tails?  You would benefit enormously from learning to examine details before you come to the same conclusion every time you see something familiar.


From the article: &lt;i&gt;who had been waiting for a bed when she collapsed, had been involuntarily admitted the previous day for &quot;agitation and psychosis,&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

What is a patient who has been admitted &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;involuntarily&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; supposed to do if there isn&#039;t a bed for them?

Your attitude is disturbing.  You don&#039;t seem to have much compassion for the struggles of people who have a disease they can&#039;t control:

EE: &lt;i&gt;We shouldn’t encourage they’re behavior by providing them a place to sleep.&lt;/i&gt;

Well there you go.  Malingering psychotics shouldn&#039;t have their behavior encouraged by providing them with a place to sleep when they&#039;ve been involuntarily committed.  Let them eat cake and sit up in chairs or pace the floors, but they will not be given a comfortable place to sleep lest, God forbid, they are encouraged to continue to be psychotic.

A bit of sarcasm, but I think having to wait 24 hours for a place to sleep where one had zero choice about the accommodations would make a lot of &lt;i&gt;rational&lt;/i&gt; people nearly psychotic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EE: <i>Providing cots for a patient to lay down on in the waiting room is a bad idea.</i></p>
<p>From the article: <i>a woman in a <b>hospital gown</b> in the waiting area of the psychiatric emergency room</i></p>
<p>She was already a patient.  It was a psych emergency room.  You are knee-jerking about abuse of regular emergency rooms.</p>
<p>Did you read the article (DB Medical Rants; Happy Hospitalist) about long tails?  You would benefit enormously from learning to examine details before you come to the same conclusion every time you see something familiar.</p>
<p>From the article: <i>who had been waiting for a bed when she collapsed, had been involuntarily admitted the previous day for &#8220;agitation and psychosis,&#8221;</i></p>
<p>What is a patient who has been admitted <b><i>involuntarily</i></b> supposed to do if there isn&#8217;t a bed for them?</p>
<p>Your attitude is disturbing.  You don&#8217;t seem to have much compassion for the struggles of people who have a disease they can&#8217;t control:</p>
<p>EE: <i>We shouldn’t encourage they’re behavior by providing them a place to sleep.</i></p>
<p>Well there you go.  Malingering psychotics shouldn&#8217;t have their behavior encouraged by providing them with a place to sleep when they&#8217;ve been involuntarily committed.  Let them eat cake and sit up in chairs or pace the floors, but they will not be given a comfortable place to sleep lest, God forbid, they are encouraged to continue to be psychotic.</p>
<p>A bit of sarcasm, but I think having to wait 24 hours for a place to sleep where one had zero choice about the accommodations would make a lot of <i>rational</i> people nearly psychotic.</p>
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		<title>By: MQ</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3952</link>
		<dc:creator>MQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3952</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PE that causes collapse isn&#039;t always fatal. It&#039;s often but not always. I was involved in one case in northern Europe. About 20 years old boy collapsed on the street. He called taxi, not ambulance, and came to our ER. In ER he was painfull and tachycardic about 160/min. He lost consciousness again, and we gave thrombolytic i.v. We had to give even CPR for a while. Later in nearby university hospital they made him embolectomia. One month later the boy walked to our ER and brought us chocolate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PE that causes collapse isn&#8217;t always fatal. It&#8217;s often but not always. I was involved in one case in northern Europe. About 20 years old boy collapsed on the street. He called taxi, not ambulance, and came to our ER. In ER he was painfull and tachycardic about 160/min. He lost consciousness again, and we gave thrombolytic i.v. We had to give even CPR for a while. Later in nearby university hospital they made him embolectomia. One month later the boy walked to our ER and brought us chocolate.</p>
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		<title>By: EE</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3951</link>
		<dc:creator>EE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 04:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3951</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also wasn&#039;t making fun of the way they talk, that&#039;s just how it is. I&#039;m dead serious.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also wasn&#8217;t making fun of the way they talk, that&#8217;s just how it is. I&#8217;m dead serious.</p>
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		<title>By: EE</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3950</link>
		<dc:creator>EE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 04:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, I don&#039;t think we should be putting cots in the waiting room. Transfer the patient out if you need to, thanks to the fact that there aren&#039;t psych beds, or, stick them on a cot in the hall. I&#039;m not arguing that she didn&#039;t need to be there (I actually don&#039;t know if she did or not, she wasn&#039;t my patient so I&#039;m not going to comment on it) but, I stand firmly by my point that cots shouldn&#039;t be in the waiting room. A good percentage of patients in ED waiting rooms for long amounts of time really DON&#039;T need to be there. We shouldn&#039;t encourage they&#039;re behavior by providing them a place to sleep.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I don&#8217;t think we should be putting cots in the waiting room. Transfer the patient out if you need to, thanks to the fact that there aren&#8217;t psych beds, or, stick them on a cot in the hall. I&#8217;m not arguing that she didn&#8217;t need to be there (I actually don&#8217;t know if she did or not, she wasn&#8217;t my patient so I&#8217;m not going to comment on it) but, I stand firmly by my point that cots shouldn&#8217;t be in the waiting room. A good percentage of patients in ED waiting rooms for long amounts of time really DON&#8217;T need to be there. We shouldn&#8217;t encourage they&#8217;re behavior by providing them a place to sleep.</p>
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		<title>By: Family Med Resident</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/07/death-on-the-floor-coming-to-a-hospital-near-you/#comment-3949</link>
		<dc:creator>Family Med Resident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 02:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=566#comment-3949</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK EE (#28), you completely missed the point (unless you were being facetious and I missed it).  The patient NEEDED to be there.  It was an EMERGENCY.  A psych emergency is still an emergency and requires treatment.  Most of the patients are not there for fun, they are there to get the medical care they need.

The point is that there is such a shortage of psych beds that people routinely wait 24-48 hours in the ED before being placed.  Would you seriously begrudge a psychotic patient who is in the ED for over a day a cot to lie down on?

I also see no need to make fun of how certain patients talk.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK EE (#28), you completely missed the point (unless you were being facetious and I missed it).  The patient NEEDED to be there.  It was an EMERGENCY.  A psych emergency is still an emergency and requires treatment.  Most of the patients are not there for fun, they are there to get the medical care they need.</p>
<p>The point is that there is such a shortage of psych beds that people routinely wait 24-48 hours in the ED before being placed.  Would you seriously begrudge a psychotic patient who is in the ED for over a day a cot to lie down on?</p>
<p>I also see no need to make fun of how certain patients talk.</p>
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