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	<title>Comments on: Medical Tourism</title>
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	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: marcia</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/#comment-5579</link>
		<dc:creator>marcia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=1388#comment-5579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Knowing how the insurance industry like to play bait &amp; switch with benefits, it won&#039;t be long before patients are sent to third-world countries with unstable governments for surgery.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knowing how the insurance industry like to play bait &amp; switch with benefits, it won&#8217;t be long before patients are sent to third-world countries with unstable governments for surgery.</p>
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		<title>By: arrrr</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/#comment-5578</link>
		<dc:creator>arrrr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=1388#comment-5578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What&#039;s particularly galling is the way the newspaper didn&#039;t call Wellpoint on their claim that they were going to save big bucks by threatening those greedy doctors with pay cuts due to medical tourism.  It&#039;s simply a lie to claim that surgeon fees are a big part of that $80000.

I would be shocked - shocked! - if the surgeon took home more than 10% of the cost of the operation.  Maybe not even 5%.  The reason it&#039;s far cheaper in other countries has very little to do with surgeon fees and everything to do with the cost of malpractice, paperwork, employees, OR time, and everything else.  In India they don&#039;t have to do multiple pre-operative &quot;correct site&quot; checks, nor do they have to have &quot;timeouts&quot; and &quot;medication reconciliation&quot; for every patient who comes in for same day surgery.  But of course the insurance company plays it like the $200 they&#039;ll whittle off the surgeon fee is the real difference.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s particularly galling is the way the newspaper didn&#8217;t call Wellpoint on their claim that they were going to save big bucks by threatening those greedy doctors with pay cuts due to medical tourism.  It&#8217;s simply a lie to claim that surgeon fees are a big part of that $80000.</p>
<p>I would be shocked &#8211; shocked! &#8211; if the surgeon took home more than 10% of the cost of the operation.  Maybe not even 5%.  The reason it&#8217;s far cheaper in other countries has very little to do with surgeon fees and everything to do with the cost of malpractice, paperwork, employees, OR time, and everything else.  In India they don&#8217;t have to do multiple pre-operative &#8220;correct site&#8221; checks, nor do they have to have &#8220;timeouts&#8221; and &#8220;medication reconciliation&#8221; for every patient who comes in for same day surgery.  But of course the insurance company plays it like the $200 they&#8217;ll whittle off the surgeon fee is the real difference.</p>
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		<title>By: NurseBeth</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/#comment-5577</link>
		<dc:creator>NurseBeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=1388#comment-5577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Several of our surgeons were talking about this recently, and all agreed that they would absolutely not see any of these pts for follow up care when they returned to US, certainly and especially if complications developed.  Some of it was the liability issue, much of it was a &quot;screw you buddy&quot; attitude at folks thinking it&#039;s all the same, just get the cheapest price.

Also, where is the wisdom in having someone sit for the very lengthy flight home when they are at most risk for DVT?  Joint replacement pts are very high risk for this, despite the preventive therapies we have instituted.

I&#039;m jus&#039; sayin&#039;.........]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several of our surgeons were talking about this recently, and all agreed that they would absolutely not see any of these pts for follow up care when they returned to US, certainly and especially if complications developed.  Some of it was the liability issue, much of it was a &#8220;screw you buddy&#8221; attitude at folks thinking it&#8217;s all the same, just get the cheapest price.</p>
<p>Also, where is the wisdom in having someone sit for the very lengthy flight home when they are at most risk for DVT?  Joint replacement pts are very high risk for this, despite the preventive therapies we have instituted.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m jus&#8217; sayin&#8217;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: hashmd</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/#comment-5576</link>
		<dc:creator>hashmd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=1388#comment-5576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Try gastric bypass or lap banding in Mexico. Much cheaper, unless you have a complication. And these patients can and do frequently enough. Then PCP&#039;s like me have to find someone to help fix or manage the complications.

If the insurance company wants to shop for the cheaper provider, then they should assume the liability. Period. They are getting what they pay for-doctors operating in a lower cost medico-legal environment, and a lower cost economy. But no followup for complications and no patient protection in case of medical injury from that lack of followup.

If the insurance wants to outsource, they should do it for EVERYTHING. Got the sniffles? Fly to India for your doctor visit. Why should they cherry pick just the elective surgeries and then underpay the urgent or emergent problems here in the states? My malpractice has to be spread across all my work. That is part of the cost of my doing business. The higher charge for the elective stuff helps pay for the underpayment or non-payment by Medicaid and soon Medicare.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try gastric bypass or lap banding in Mexico. Much cheaper, unless you have a complication. And these patients can and do frequently enough. Then PCP&#8217;s like me have to find someone to help fix or manage the complications.</p>
<p>If the insurance company wants to shop for the cheaper provider, then they should assume the liability. Period. They are getting what they pay for-doctors operating in a lower cost medico-legal environment, and a lower cost economy. But no followup for complications and no patient protection in case of medical injury from that lack of followup.</p>
<p>If the insurance wants to outsource, they should do it for EVERYTHING. Got the sniffles? Fly to India for your doctor visit. Why should they cherry pick just the elective surgeries and then underpay the urgent or emergent problems here in the states? My malpractice has to be spread across all my work. That is part of the cost of my doing business. The higher charge for the elective stuff helps pay for the underpayment or non-payment by Medicaid and soon Medicare.</p>
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		<title>By: scalpel</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/#comment-5575</link>
		<dc:creator>scalpel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=1388#comment-5575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;What if the patient is OK when leaving India, then returns and develops a surgical complication?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Then they will be our problem in the ER.

Or your problem in the ED.

;)

&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;We&#039;re going to grapple.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;What if the patient is OK when leaving India, then returns and develops a surgical complication?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Then they will be our problem in the ER.</p>
<p>Or your problem in the ED.<br />
 <img src='http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><em><strong>We&#8217;re going to grapple.</strong></em></p>
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		<title>By: TheOtherOne</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/#comment-5574</link>
		<dc:creator>TheOtherOne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=1388#comment-5574</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My dad (in his early 70s) had a knee replaced this spring.  His recovery was great, medically speaking.

The experience?  Was horrible.  For us and for him.  The first two weeks after he got out of the hospital were *miserable*.  I don&#039;t think he got in the car, other than to go to doctor appointments, for a couple of months.  And that was with NO complications.  He was just in pain, and the pain scared him.

I can&#039;t *imagine* how much worse it would have been if we hadn&#039;t been at home.  And the thought of a long flight back at some point in those first couple of weeks?  Eeeek!   Not me.  Not my family.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My dad (in his early 70s) had a knee replaced this spring.  His recovery was great, medically speaking.</p>
<p>The experience?  Was horrible.  For us and for him.  The first two weeks after he got out of the hospital were *miserable*.  I don&#8217;t think he got in the car, other than to go to doctor appointments, for a couple of months.  And that was with NO complications.  He was just in pain, and the pain scared him.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t *imagine* how much worse it would have been if we hadn&#8217;t been at home.  And the thought of a long flight back at some point in those first couple of weeks?  Eeeek!   Not me.  Not my family.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathy</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/#comment-5573</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=1388#comment-5573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An interesting and thought provoking post.  People have travelled for years to &quot;poorer&quot; countries for IVF for years.  Not too long ago many US citizens were crossing the border into Canada to have Lasik eye surgery since it was so much cheaper.  So, it has been happening for &quot;elective&quot; procedures.  I&#039;m not sure I like the idea of a middleman either.  At least if people go to an Eastern European country or South Africa for IVF and it doesn&#039;t work they aren&#039;t blaming a middleman or suing their hometown RE.

Interesting to see where this goes.....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting and thought provoking post.  People have travelled for years to &#8220;poorer&#8221; countries for IVF for years.  Not too long ago many US citizens were crossing the border into Canada to have Lasik eye surgery since it was so much cheaper.  So, it has been happening for &#8220;elective&#8221; procedures.  I&#8217;m not sure I like the idea of a middleman either.  At least if people go to an Eastern European country or South Africa for IVF and it doesn&#8217;t work they aren&#8217;t blaming a middleman or suing their hometown RE.</p>
<p>Interesting to see where this goes&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Disciple of "Bob"</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2008/11/medical-tourism/#comment-5572</link>
		<dc:creator>Disciple of "Bob"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/?p=1388#comment-5572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Help me out, here.

You say medical tourism is a good idea, and to support that you only offer a couple of thoughts pertaining to how money changes hands.

Immediately thereafter, you spend very nearly the rest of your post proposing dozens of reasons why &quot;medical tourism&quot; is a TERRIBLE idea.

It sure seems to me a Medical Tourism safari is just as likely to ultimately end up in an American Emergency Department anyway.  And note that it&#039;s called &quot;Emergency Department&quot; and not &quot;Good Idea Department&quot;.  I bet there&#039;s a reason for that...

Maybe I&#039;m suffering from Irony Deficiency.  On the other hand, I *did* forget to take my meds this morning.  Dang it!

&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Disciple! I have missed your comments! Good to have you back.
I think that when people arrange for their own medical tourism, they go into it knowing that they won&#039;t get the follow up care and won&#039;t have the same legal rights they have in the US. In essence, they are trading those positives for a lower cost. I wouldn&#039;t even try to make the comparison that the treatment is &quot;worse&quot; - I&#039;ve met foreign docs who have more knowledge in their little toe than I have in my whole body.
I have no problems with the &quot;free marketization&quot; of medicine - in fact, that&#039;s the way that I think the system has to go in order to become viable. Get rid of the middle man. I&#039;m actually working on a post about that. Look at Lasik surgeries and liposuction. Doctor provides service for price, patient agrees on price, surgery gets done. Both parties walk away happy.
Now comes the &quot;middle man.&quot; You continue to pay insurance companies the same premium, but now they shuttle you to another country to get you the same care - because it costs the insurance companies less money. Patients have no idea how much it costs to provide the service, but keep paying higher and higher premiums to the insurance company. Who benefits? Patients have potential for more problems and have less recourse. Doctors in India will have the rates for surgery &quot;negotiated down&quot; at the threat of insurers taking their business elsewhere. The only ones who win are the insurers.
Keep the third parties out of it and I&#039;m fine with the idea of medical tourism - as long as the tourists know what they&#039;re in for ahead of time.
&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Help me out, here.</p>
<p>You say medical tourism is a good idea, and to support that you only offer a couple of thoughts pertaining to how money changes hands.</p>
<p>Immediately thereafter, you spend very nearly the rest of your post proposing dozens of reasons why &#8220;medical tourism&#8221; is a TERRIBLE idea.</p>
<p>It sure seems to me a Medical Tourism safari is just as likely to ultimately end up in an American Emergency Department anyway.  And note that it&#8217;s called &#8220;Emergency Department&#8221; and not &#8220;Good Idea Department&#8221;.  I bet there&#8217;s a reason for that&#8230;</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m suffering from Irony Deficiency.  On the other hand, I *did* forget to take my meds this morning.  Dang it!</p>
<p><em><strong>Disciple! I have missed your comments! Good to have you back.<br />
I think that when people arrange for their own medical tourism, they go into it knowing that they won&#8217;t get the follow up care and won&#8217;t have the same legal rights they have in the US. In essence, they are trading those positives for a lower cost. I wouldn&#8217;t even try to make the comparison that the treatment is &#8220;worse&#8221; &#8211; I&#8217;ve met foreign docs who have more knowledge in their little toe than I have in my whole body.<br />
I have no problems with the &#8220;free marketization&#8221; of medicine &#8211; in fact, that&#8217;s the way that I think the system has to go in order to become viable. Get rid of the middle man. I&#8217;m actually working on a post about that. Look at Lasik surgeries and liposuction. Doctor provides service for price, patient agrees on price, surgery gets done. Both parties walk away happy.<br />
Now comes the &#8220;middle man.&#8221; You continue to pay insurance companies the same premium, but now they shuttle you to another country to get you the same care &#8211; because it costs the insurance companies less money. Patients have no idea how much it costs to provide the service, but keep paying higher and higher premiums to the insurance company. Who benefits? Patients have potential for more problems and have less recourse. Doctors in India will have the rates for surgery &#8220;negotiated down&#8221; at the threat of insurers taking their business elsewhere. The only ones who win are the insurers.<br />
Keep the third parties out of it and I&#8217;m fine with the idea of medical tourism &#8211; as long as the tourists know what they&#8217;re in for ahead of time.<br />
</strong></em></p>
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