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	<title>Comments on: Defensive Medicine at Work</title>
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	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: Jon Hager</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-24528</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Hager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-24528</guid>
		<description>Sounds good to me.  If X number of ER docs agreed to the standards and signed agreement statement, then this could be used in defense of many lawsuits.

Where are these statements...and how/where do I sign!?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds good to me.  If X number of ER docs agreed to the standards and signed agreement statement, then this could be used in defense of many lawsuits.</p>
<p>Where are these statements&#8230;and how/where do I sign!?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-17657</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 02:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-17657</guid>
		<description>Hunter,

Your solution is impractical, as you will learn when you start your clinical rotations in 2 years.  

Sometimes your patient will be able to understand your explanations and the choices you&#039;re offering.  Sometimes you will have the extra time to explain all the ramifications of the choices.  But not all the time, not even most of the time, not even very often.

On top of that, most patients don&#039;t want to make the choice.  They want the doctor to decide.  Hopefully, within a few years you&#039;ll be experienced enough that your abilities will justify their trust in you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hunter,</p>
<p>Your solution is impractical, as you will learn when you start your clinical rotations in 2 years.  </p>
<p>Sometimes your patient will be able to understand your explanations and the choices you&#8217;re offering.  Sometimes you will have the extra time to explain all the ramifications of the choices.  But not all the time, not even most of the time, not even very often.</p>
<p>On top of that, most patients don&#8217;t want to make the choice.  They want the doctor to decide.  Hopefully, within a few years you&#8217;ll be experienced enough that your abilities will justify their trust in you.</p>
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		<title>By: MultipleFactors</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-16610</link>
		<dc:creator>MultipleFactors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-16610</guid>
		<description>Cory,

The costs of a lawsuit would be higher than the cost of the test for that one patient, yes. But not necessarily higher than the sum total cost of that test in the 1000 other similar patients that it takes to find that one patient with a positive result. And possibly one(or more) of those other 1000 patients are harmed in someway(renal failure through IV contrast, future cancer from radiation exposure, actual contrast allergy, some ditzel is seen on the CT that leads to future CTs and/or procedures to further characterize the ditzel which 2 years and countless dollars and lots of worry and maybe a cool new scar later is nothing, etc. All of these f/u procedures have their own risk as well. Where does one draw the risk/benefit line? Does money play a role? Sure. But absolutely also playing a role is the how many people do I cause harm to by doing this test to find the one positive result?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cory,</p>
<p>The costs of a lawsuit would be higher than the cost of the test for that one patient, yes. But not necessarily higher than the sum total cost of that test in the 1000 other similar patients that it takes to find that one patient with a positive result. And possibly one(or more) of those other 1000 patients are harmed in someway(renal failure through IV contrast, future cancer from radiation exposure, actual contrast allergy, some ditzel is seen on the CT that leads to future CTs and/or procedures to further characterize the ditzel which 2 years and countless dollars and lots of worry and maybe a cool new scar later is nothing, etc. All of these f/u procedures have their own risk as well. Where does one draw the risk/benefit line? Does money play a role? Sure. But absolutely also playing a role is the how many people do I cause harm to by doing this test to find the one positive result?</p>
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		<title>By: cory</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-16601</link>
		<dc:creator>cory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-16601</guid>
		<description>Maybe I&#039;m missing something.
I&#039;ll assume that in every example the test you did that was negative was unnecessary -though I&#039;m not sure and there is no way for us to tell (i.e. we didn&#039;t see the patient, perhaps one of those X-rays or CTs might have clearly had an indication).
But here&#039;s my point -suppose one test was positive and had launched a lawsuit - wouldn&#039;t the costs be far higher than what was expended? IF you missed a subdural in the anticoagulated patient with head trauma the answer almost certainly would be yes.
IF you &quot;know&quot; something is normal then you should have no problem in not doing it- with the full knowledge you are taking the consequences (missing a small fracture may have far fewer consequences than missing a subdural) and offering that as your defense if you turn out to be wrong. 
 Yes, that means taking some risk - and potentially the costs in a the first phases of a lawsuit.
But what exactly is the alternative- you can put in legislation to deter some suits but if you make that too onerous, patients will be hurt - and medicine will suffer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m missing something.<br />
I&#8217;ll assume that in every example the test you did that was negative was unnecessary -though I&#8217;m not sure and there is no way for us to tell (i.e. we didn&#8217;t see the patient, perhaps one of those X-rays or CTs might have clearly had an indication).<br />
But here&#8217;s my point -suppose one test was positive and had launched a lawsuit &#8211; wouldn&#8217;t the costs be far higher than what was expended? IF you missed a subdural in the anticoagulated patient with head trauma the answer almost certainly would be yes.<br />
IF you &#8220;know&#8221; something is normal then you should have no problem in not doing it- with the full knowledge you are taking the consequences (missing a small fracture may have far fewer consequences than missing a subdural) and offering that as your defense if you turn out to be wrong.<br />
 Yes, that means taking some risk &#8211; and potentially the costs in a the first phases of a lawsuit.<br />
But what exactly is the alternative- you can put in legislation to deter some suits but if you make that too onerous, patients will be hurt &#8211; and medicine will suffer.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-16284</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 04:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-16284</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a first year medical student, and the reason I&#039;ve read this article and all these comments is because I am worried that I will allow Defensive Medicine to interfere with my future practice.

I&#039;m afraid that if I allow the fear of litigation to run my practice, I will cause unnecessary harm and discomfort to my patients (radiation, invasive diagnostics, over medicating, etc). I&#039;m also afraid that if I don&#039;t exhaust my differential, I might miss something and allow harm to come which I was in a possition to prevent. And yes, I&#039;m afraid for myself and my family if I were to be sued.

In reading these comments, both physicians and patients are on both sides of the issue. Some physicians are on the &quot;unnecessary harm&quot; side, and some are on the &quot;don&#039;t miss it&quot; side. Others, I&#039;m sure, are mostly concerned with protecting themselves which is completely understandable.

Some patients want the (perceived) absolute certainty of such and such being ruled out. Others probably avoid getting checked up for as long as possible because they don&#039;t want $1200 scans that everyone knows will likely be normal. And, perhaps, a few patients are looking for a buck.

So what should I do? My default instinct is to cover my own butt and worry about myself before I worry about the patient. But I AM worried about the patient. After some thought, it seems to me that the best option is to present the patient with your knowledge and clinical assessment, then discuss the tests that will rule out the less likely diagnoses and allow the patient to decide.

I&#039;m only 6 months into my medical training, and perhaps I&#039;m missing something, but this seems like a fairly simple solution. Wouldn&#039;t it free the practicioner from liability? Wouldn&#039;t it allow the patient to decide if they want to pay that enormous bill, or if they want to take the chance that something improbable will be overlooked? Shouldn&#039;t they decide if they want to risk the adverse effects of additional diagnostics? Doctors are employed by patients, so it shouldn&#039;t really be my decision at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a first year medical student, and the reason I&#8217;ve read this article and all these comments is because I am worried that I will allow Defensive Medicine to interfere with my future practice.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid that if I allow the fear of litigation to run my practice, I will cause unnecessary harm and discomfort to my patients (radiation, invasive diagnostics, over medicating, etc). I&#8217;m also afraid that if I don&#8217;t exhaust my differential, I might miss something and allow harm to come which I was in a possition to prevent. And yes, I&#8217;m afraid for myself and my family if I were to be sued.</p>
<p>In reading these comments, both physicians and patients are on both sides of the issue. Some physicians are on the &#8220;unnecessary harm&#8221; side, and some are on the &#8220;don&#8217;t miss it&#8221; side. Others, I&#8217;m sure, are mostly concerned with protecting themselves which is completely understandable.</p>
<p>Some patients want the (perceived) absolute certainty of such and such being ruled out. Others probably avoid getting checked up for as long as possible because they don&#8217;t want $1200 scans that everyone knows will likely be normal. And, perhaps, a few patients are looking for a buck.</p>
<p>So what should I do? My default instinct is to cover my own butt and worry about myself before I worry about the patient. But I AM worried about the patient. After some thought, it seems to me that the best option is to present the patient with your knowledge and clinical assessment, then discuss the tests that will rule out the less likely diagnoses and allow the patient to decide.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m only 6 months into my medical training, and perhaps I&#8217;m missing something, but this seems like a fairly simple solution. Wouldn&#8217;t it free the practicioner from liability? Wouldn&#8217;t it allow the patient to decide if they want to pay that enormous bill, or if they want to take the chance that something improbable will be overlooked? Shouldn&#8217;t they decide if they want to risk the adverse effects of additional diagnostics? Doctors are employed by patients, so it shouldn&#8217;t really be my decision at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-14940</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-14940</guid>
		<description>Fear coumadin, no reason to fear coumadin if followed correctly, in the prior month the protime  could have fluctuated. also I would not have given Toradol to a pt that I was treating for possible bleeding problems</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fear coumadin, no reason to fear coumadin if followed correctly, in the prior month the protime  could have fluctuated. also I would not have given Toradol to a pt that I was treating for possible bleeding problems</p>
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		<title>By: Jan</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-14315</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-14315</guid>
		<description>&quot;The answer is because in our culture, “probably” doesn’t cut the mustard any more. Clinical medical judgment has been supplanted by the demand that physicians disprove the improbable. Society has made it so that physicians are more concerned with proving that unlikely diagnoses with the possibility of a “bad outcome” don’t exist and with maintaining good Press Ganey scores. Many physicians are afraid to practice rational medicine based upon clinical judgment and physical examination skills. No one wants to face the liability.&quot;

Actually what has changed is the expectation that you do the most cost-effective approach rather than the best approach for the patient.

In most of your examples the additional work-up did benefit the patient by ruling out a possible complicating factor.  It may have only been a one in ten or one in a hundred chance that you ruled out, but it was not zero (except in one or two cases).  

It used to be that dr&#039;s would want to rule out these possibilities.  Now the insurance co&#039;s have so fouled up our ideas of what medicine ought to be that we can&#039;t even see that point of view any more.

As your potential patient, it is certainly my opinion that most of those tests would have been in my best interests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The answer is because in our culture, “probably” doesn’t cut the mustard any more. Clinical medical judgment has been supplanted by the demand that physicians disprove the improbable. Society has made it so that physicians are more concerned with proving that unlikely diagnoses with the possibility of a “bad outcome” don’t exist and with maintaining good Press Ganey scores. Many physicians are afraid to practice rational medicine based upon clinical judgment and physical examination skills. No one wants to face the liability.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually what has changed is the expectation that you do the most cost-effective approach rather than the best approach for the patient.</p>
<p>In most of your examples the additional work-up did benefit the patient by ruling out a possible complicating factor.  It may have only been a one in ten or one in a hundred chance that you ruled out, but it was not zero (except in one or two cases).  </p>
<p>It used to be that dr&#8217;s would want to rule out these possibilities.  Now the insurance co&#8217;s have so fouled up our ideas of what medicine ought to be that we can&#8217;t even see that point of view any more.</p>
<p>As your potential patient, it is certainly my opinion that most of those tests would have been in my best interests.</p>
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		<title>By: sidney goldfarb md</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-14126</link>
		<dc:creator>sidney goldfarb md</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-14126</guid>
		<description>Our ER docs tell me that 70% of their CT scans are defensive. C section rates used to be 14% and now are 30% plus. End of life care can&#039;t be refused because of fear of a suit from a family member. We biopsy people and follow them closely because we fear missing something . I think this adds up to 20-25% of all medical costs and could be mostly saved by changing lawsuits to arbitration, health courts, panels, or a workers&#039; comp like system or a combo of these. The injured pts would be compensated more quickly and the lawyers wouldn&#039;t have to get 30-40% of an award.
Food for thought and reform</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our ER docs tell me that 70% of their CT scans are defensive. C section rates used to be 14% and now are 30% plus. End of life care can&#8217;t be refused because of fear of a suit from a family member. We biopsy people and follow them closely because we fear missing something . I think this adds up to 20-25% of all medical costs and could be mostly saved by changing lawsuits to arbitration, health courts, panels, or a workers&#8217; comp like system or a combo of these. The injured pts would be compensated more quickly and the lawyers wouldn&#8217;t have to get 30-40% of an award.<br />
Food for thought and reform</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-13334</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-13334</guid>
		<description>I just watched a British documentary on the effects of low level radiation.  Apparently, radiation in low doses over a prolonged period of time does NOT increase the risk of cancer, but actually may be beneficial to dna based organisms in preventing cancer!
I believe it was titled &quot;the nuclear nightmare&quot;
Animals trapped in the area around the former nuclear plant almost twenty years after Chernobyl show no adverse effects even though their preserved skins are still radioactive.
Sure, all of the first responders in the accident died of radiation poisoning, but in total less than 60 people who were living near the reactor at the time of the accident have died as a proven result of exposure to radiation.
There is no evidence to demonstrate that airline or military pilots (who are exposed to a crapload of radiation during their service lives) have any higher cancer incidence than the average person.
Other examples were given but you get the drift...go figure!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just watched a British documentary on the effects of low level radiation.  Apparently, radiation in low doses over a prolonged period of time does NOT increase the risk of cancer, but actually may be beneficial to dna based organisms in preventing cancer!<br />
I believe it was titled &#8220;the nuclear nightmare&#8221;<br />
Animals trapped in the area around the former nuclear plant almost twenty years after Chernobyl show no adverse effects even though their preserved skins are still radioactive.<br />
Sure, all of the first responders in the accident died of radiation poisoning, but in total less than 60 people who were living near the reactor at the time of the accident have died as a proven result of exposure to radiation.<br />
There is no evidence to demonstrate that airline or military pilots (who are exposed to a crapload of radiation during their service lives) have any higher cancer incidence than the average person.<br />
Other examples were given but you get the drift&#8230;go figure!</p>
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		<title>By: BizzyBlog &#187; Guest Post: &#8216;Reform health care culture and politics first&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/01/defensive-medicine-at-work/#comment-10058</link>
		<dc:creator>BizzyBlog &#187; Guest Post: &#8216;Reform health care culture and politics first&#8217;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=1859#comment-10058</guid>
		<description>[...] Health care reform is a cultural and political problem more than a medical or economic one. In Canada and Europe, they are getting no frills Beetle that gets you from A to B 90% of the time. That’s why their systems are cheaper, but that wouldn’t fly here. The American culture expects (or has been conditioned to demand) the best possible care (decreasing benefit) as soon as possible (increasing cost) paid by someone else (employer or government) and sues if the outcome isn’t acceptable (defensive medicine). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Health care reform is a cultural and political problem more than a medical or economic one. In Canada and Europe, they are getting no frills Beetle that gets you from A to B 90% of the time. That’s why their systems are cheaper, but that wouldn’t fly here. The American culture expects (or has been conditioned to demand) the best possible care (decreasing benefit) as soon as possible (increasing cost) paid by someone else (employer or government) and sues if the outcome isn’t acceptable (defensive medicine). [...]</p>
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