Comments on: Another Gash In The California Safety Net http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/ A blog from inside the emergency department Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:19:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: DocD http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-21820 DocD Fri, 04 Jun 2010 04:26:54 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-21820 The doctors get cheated and the attorneys and patients reap the full rewards with this legal ruling - here is why- Lets pretend an ER doc and hospital bill is $3000 and the rate they have to accept is $1200 this leaves an open unpaid balance of $1800 which THEY are NOT ALLOWED to COLLECT and have to WRITE OFF. So this injured person leaves the ER with his $3000 bill which his insurance only paid $1200 on he takes the FULL bill of $3000 to the attorney. It is common practice for personal injury attorneys to use a multiple of 2x-3x the medical bills as a rule when they are seeking a settlement for an injured client. So the attorney will multiple the $3000 bill by 3 and demands a settlement of $9000. The insurance company may settle for say 70% of that ($6300) the attorney will be paid 33% (the going rate for attorney fees) $2079 and the patient gets the rest $4221. Doctor and Hospital (who did ALL the WORK and pays taxes): $1200 Attorney (who does virtually nothing): $2079 Patient (hits a huge TAX FREE pay day): $4221 The attorneys love this new law as they can now spread the wealth with the client keeping they money that should rightfully go to the doctors and they walk away like bandits for doing virtually zero work to get the money. I should have gone to law school. Lawyers have a license to steal! The doctors get cheated and the attorneys and patients reap the full rewards with this legal ruling – here is why- Lets pretend an ER doc and hospital bill is $3000 and the rate they have to accept is $1200 this leaves an open unpaid balance of $1800 which THEY are NOT ALLOWED to COLLECT and have to WRITE OFF. So this injured person leaves the ER with his $3000 bill which his insurance only paid $1200 on he takes the FULL bill of $3000 to the attorney. It is common practice for personal injury attorneys to use a multiple of 2x-3x the medical bills as a rule when they are seeking a settlement for an injured client. So the attorney will multiple the $3000 bill by 3 and demands a settlement of $9000. The insurance company may settle for say 70% of that ($6300) the attorney will be paid 33% (the going rate for attorney fees) $2079 and the patient gets the rest $4221.
Doctor and Hospital (who did ALL the WORK and pays taxes): $1200
Attorney (who does virtually nothing): $2079
Patient (hits a huge TAX FREE pay day): $4221
The attorneys love this new law as they can now spread the wealth with the client keeping they money that should rightfully go to the doctors and they walk away like bandits for doing virtually zero work to get the money. I should have gone to law school. Lawyers have a license to steal!

]]> By: sj http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-7506 sj Mon, 23 Mar 2009 05:48:31 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-7506 The ER doc who saw my wife for a max of 15 minutes including charting time & research (and offered no solutions, only excluded one significant thing it wasn't) still received a few hundred bucks from our insurance company. Isn't that enough? He was a decent fellow, but his group's president has lied through his teeth to the local newspaper about how they would not do balance billing even if it were legal. Why then do they threaten to take my wife to collections even now that it IS ILLEGAL in the state of California? Screw the attorneys and bureaucrats, they are mostly parasites. But you better start policing your own, because dear doctors, some of your kind are indeed greedy and unethical and they are giving you all a bad name. Come to think of it, I know no other profession where the customer has effectively no choice but to pay a month later for whatever costs they were never told about up front much less asked permission for regardless whether the attempts to help did help or not or were even in the ballpark. Pass the buck to yet another specialist- "no we have no answers but we will be happy to take your money anyway..." My mechanic would be in jail, lose his BAR & business license, and be liable for civil damages if he tried doing to our cars what has been done to my wife! The ER doc who saw my wife for a max of 15 minutes including charting time & research (and offered no solutions, only excluded one significant thing it wasn’t) still received a few hundred bucks from our insurance company. Isn’t that enough? He was a decent fellow, but his group’s president has lied through his teeth to the local newspaper about how they would not do balance billing even if it were legal. Why then do they threaten to take my wife to collections even now that it IS ILLEGAL in the state of California? Screw the attorneys and bureaucrats, they are mostly parasites. But you better start policing your own, because dear doctors, some of your kind are indeed greedy and unethical and they are giving you all a bad name. Come to think of it, I know no other profession where the customer has effectively no choice but to pay a month later for whatever costs they were never told about up front much less asked permission for regardless whether the attempts to help did help or not or were even in the ballpark. Pass the buck to yet another specialist- “no we have no answers but we will be happy to take your money anyway…” My mechanic would be in jail, lose his BAR & business license, and be liable for civil damages if he tried doing to our cars what has been done to my wife!

]]> By: anon http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-7065 anon Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:56:22 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-7065 physicians will never be made government employees because that will restrict access to civil remedies under malpractice torts. It is very very difficult to sue a government employee in the performance or their duty, VA doctors for example. If, however, the economic benefit of practicing medicine is reduced and the risk is not, well the doctors remaining will either be fewer in numbers or lower in quality, If you don't understand that, you are not a serious person. physicians will never be made government employees because that will restrict access to civil remedies under malpractice torts. It is very very difficult to sue a government employee in the performance or their duty, VA doctors for example.

If, however, the economic benefit of practicing medicine is reduced and the risk is not, well the doctors remaining will either be fewer in numbers or lower in quality, If you don’t understand that, you are not a serious person.

]]> By: Supremacy Claus http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-7032 Supremacy Claus Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:15:01 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-7032 WC: I think you would enjoy part time law school. You would do well, since parsing word for word is what they teach. I say that as a compliment, not as the insult it may appear. Matt can defend himself. There is nothing wrong with summary characterizations as a short hand theory to explain the anomalous arguments of the lawyer. If someone is a "slimeball," their low morals explain their views. "Slimeball" is a short hand category for the many elements of lawyer rent seeking. The Rent Seeking Theory best explains all anomalous lawyer behavior, especially appellate decisions. It actually helps to predict 70% of Supreme Court decisions, and trumps all political affiliations and religious beliefs of the Justices. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking It is a fancy name for literal not metaphorical armed robbery, i.e. "Slimeball." Someone with a gun collects your taxes, and the public gets nothing in return. WC: I think you would enjoy part time law school. You would do well, since parsing word for word is what they teach. I say that as a compliment, not as the insult it may appear.

Matt can defend himself. There is nothing wrong with summary characterizations as a short hand theory to explain the anomalous arguments of the lawyer. If someone is a “slimeball,” their low morals explain their views. “Slimeball” is a short hand category for the many elements of lawyer rent seeking.

The Rent Seeking Theory best explains all anomalous lawyer behavior, especially appellate decisions. It actually helps to predict 70% of Supreme Court decisions, and trumps all political affiliations and religious beliefs of the Justices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

It is a fancy name for literal not metaphorical armed robbery, i.e. “Slimeball.” Someone with a gun collects your taxes, and the public gets nothing in return.

]]> By: WhiteCoat http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-7026 WhiteCoat Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:31:20 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-7026 First, Matt said that your "comments" were not even sane, not that you were insane. I don't get into the left wing/right wing stuff and I'm not going to engage in playground politics. I try to keep the discussions on point. Using foul language and/or calling names doesn't further that goal. Sorry if that upsets you. First, Matt said that your “comments” were not even sane, not that you were insane.
I don’t get into the left wing/right wing stuff and I’m not going to engage in playground politics.
I try to keep the discussions on point. Using foul language and/or calling names doesn’t further that goal.
Sorry if that upsets you.

]]> By: Supremacy Claus http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-7015 Supremacy Claus Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:25:45 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-7015 Matt refuses to answer this question. Will he support ending the privity obstacle to a legal malpractice claim by an adverse third party? This is a neutral question and not anti-plaintiff. If a plaintiff is the victim of a frivolous defense, he should be able to sue the defense attorney, since the filing of a frivolous defense is legal malpractice. Why won't Matt support ending a privilege no other party has had as a defense for over 100 years? What justifies this unique lawyer, self-dealt immunity? Matt refuses to answer this question. Will he support ending the privity obstacle to a legal malpractice claim by an adverse third party?

This is a neutral question and not anti-plaintiff. If a plaintiff is the victim of a frivolous defense, he should be able to sue the defense attorney, since the filing of a frivolous defense is legal malpractice.

Why won’t Matt support ending a privilege no other party has had as a defense for over 100 years? What justifies this unique lawyer, self-dealt immunity?

]]> By: Supremacy Claus http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-7014 Supremacy Claus Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:21:29 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-7014 The government is a wholly owned subsidiary of the criminal cult enterprise that is the lawyer profession. The elected and other high officials are figurehead puppets. About 99% of policy decisions are made by lawyers indoctrinated into its supernatural doctrines and loyal only to enterprise rent seeking. this is true of lawyers of all political affiliation and of all beliefs. The lawyer enterprise wants to control and plunder the health care budget, as a mob takeover of a business would. The criminal element of criminal cult enterprise fully justifies public self-help. The legal system is rigged airtight, and there is no other recourse. It is almost a public duty to kill the Mafia when they come around to take over and plunder a neighborhood. The lawyer called me insane in an inappropriate ad hominem attack. The blogger did not remove that attack. He only censors dissent from left wing extremists. The government is a wholly owned subsidiary of the criminal cult enterprise that is the lawyer profession. The elected and other high officials are figurehead puppets. About 99% of policy decisions are made by lawyers indoctrinated into its supernatural doctrines and loyal only to enterprise rent seeking. this is true of lawyers of all political affiliation and of all beliefs. The lawyer enterprise wants to control and plunder the health care budget, as a mob takeover of a business would. The criminal element of criminal cult enterprise fully justifies public self-help. The legal system is rigged airtight, and there is no other recourse. It is almost a public duty to kill the Mafia when they come around to take over and plunder a neighborhood.

The lawyer called me insane in an inappropriate ad hominem attack. The blogger did not remove that attack. He only censors dissent from left wing extremists.

]]> By: Matt http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-7003 Matt Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:34:03 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-7003 "That leaves holding the cult criminals on the Cali Supreme Court accountable. They should be forced to resign, impeached, or driven out of town by street justice meted out by bereaved family members. To deter. There is full moral and intellectual self-defense justification for a remedy against lawyers who kill." And these are the comments you couldn't agree more with? They're not even sane. “That leaves holding the cult criminals on the Cali Supreme Court accountable. They should be forced to resign, impeached, or driven out of town by street justice meted out by bereaved family members. To deter. There is full moral and intellectual self-defense justification for a remedy against lawyers who kill.”

And these are the comments you couldn’t agree more with? They’re not even sane.

]]> By: Matt http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-7002 Matt Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:32:37 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-7002 I didn't say you never saw them again. I said that what you do is not the complete picture of their lives. "Try doing your job with a lawyer looking over your shoulder" Your perception is not reality. It is a tiny, tiny percentage of the people you see that will ever go see a lawyer about your care, and an even smaller number where the lawyer will even take the case on an exploratory basis, and a smaller number yet where the patient will have a claim the attorney is willing to pursue. So what lawyer is breathing down your neck every day? Because you might, maybe, someday have a claim you've got a lawyer breathing down your neck? That makes no sense. Do you feel like that every time you speed when you're driving? That because you might possibly get in a wreck because of your driving there's a lawyer breathing down your neck in the car? You want everyone to walk in your shoes before they comment, but you feel quite comfortable criticizing others, namely lawyers, who you know little about. Or are you trying cases on the side? Do you realize the hypocrisy of this position? And really, back to an earlier point, do you realize how much time you waste getting incensed at lawyers when your profession is about to become a wholly owned subsidiary of the federal govt? You spend so much money, time, and energy damning lawyers on behalf of your liability carriers, while Daschle and his ilk are working to add you to the federal employees' union. If you should be worried about anything, it's that. I didn’t say you never saw them again. I said that what you do is not the complete picture of their lives.

“Try doing your job with a lawyer looking over your shoulder”

Your perception is not reality. It is a tiny, tiny percentage of the people you see that will ever go see a lawyer about your care, and an even smaller number where the lawyer will even take the case on an exploratory basis, and a smaller number yet where the patient will have a claim the attorney is willing to pursue. So what lawyer is breathing down your neck every day? Because you might, maybe, someday have a claim you’ve got a lawyer breathing down your neck? That makes no sense. Do you feel like that every time you speed when you’re driving? That because you might possibly get in a wreck because of your driving there’s a lawyer breathing down your neck in the car?

You want everyone to walk in your shoes before they comment, but you feel quite comfortable criticizing others, namely lawyers, who you know little about. Or are you trying cases on the side? Do you realize the hypocrisy of this position?

And really, back to an earlier point, do you realize how much time you waste getting incensed at lawyers when your profession is about to become a wholly owned subsidiary of the federal govt? You spend so much money, time, and energy damning lawyers on behalf of your liability carriers, while Daschle and his ilk are working to add you to the federal employees’ union. If you should be worried about anything, it’s that.

]]> By: 4Q2 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/02/another-gash-in-the-california-safety-net/#comment-6994 4Q2 Tue, 24 Feb 2009 02:09:55 +0000 http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=2053#comment-6994 Matt, You think doctors don't see the patients once they leave the Hospital or rehab? Your kidding right? Some of these poor souls become " frequent flyers" if they survive the acute illness/injury. You think lawyers are the only professionals that get to experience the anger/frustration/grief/depression/name your emotion related to medical illness and the loss of income/status/divorce/disability/bankruptcy/etc? Your absolutely right there is far more to life than what I do, and for that matter what you do as well. I applaud all you do to help these poor souls and bad doctors deserve to be punished. A bad outcome does not mean that the patient received poor care. Try doing your job with a lawyer looking over your shoulder and breathing down your neck every day ( of course reviewed months or years later, in a nice conference room, with little bottles of water on the table, in a quiet, contemplative atmosphere,not obviously in real time with hysterical family members pleading " save my husband/wife/mother/father/son/etc.). Again, walk a mile in my shoes, make real time decisions, not retrospective ones. Supremacy Claus, I couldn't agree more with your comments. Matt,
You think doctors don’t see the patients once they leave the Hospital or rehab? Your kidding right? Some of these poor souls become ” frequent flyers” if they survive the acute illness/injury. You think lawyers are the only professionals that get to experience the anger/frustration/grief/depression/name your emotion related to medical illness and the loss of income/status/divorce/disability/bankruptcy/etc? Your absolutely right there is far more to life than what I do, and for that matter what you do as well. I applaud all you do to help these poor souls and bad doctors deserve to be punished. A bad outcome does not mean that the patient received poor care. Try doing your job with a lawyer looking over your shoulder and breathing down your neck every day ( of course reviewed months or years later, in a nice conference room, with little bottles of water on the table, in a quiet, contemplative atmosphere,not obviously in real time with hysterical family members pleading ” save my husband/wife/mother/father/son/etc.). Again, walk a mile in my shoes, make real time decisions, not retrospective ones.
Supremacy Claus,
I couldn’t agree more with your comments.

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