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	<title>Comments on: The Demise of American Health Care</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: Fyrdoc</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15423</link>
		<dc:creator>Fyrdoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15423</guid>
		<description>jb,

Nope, private hospitals are not the answer.  In most states, a licensed health care facility (accepting MA/MC or not), must go through a &quot;certificate of need&quot; procedure in order to get a permit for the purchase of large new equipment (e.g., CT, MRI) / construction of facilities.  The states have effectively used CONs to force facilities into accepting MA/MC in order to gain approval.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jb,</p>
<p>Nope, private hospitals are not the answer.  In most states, a licensed health care facility (accepting MA/MC or not), must go through a &#8220;certificate of need&#8221; procedure in order to get a permit for the purchase of large new equipment (e.g., CT, MRI) / construction of facilities.  The states have effectively used CONs to force facilities into accepting MA/MC in order to gain approval.</p>
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		<title>By: jb</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15421</link>
		<dc:creator>jb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15421</guid>
		<description>Yeah, but if you don&#039;t take Medicare or Medicaid, and I predict some hospitals in the future won&#039;t, then EMTALA is just a bunch of letters. In the UK and Canada there are completely private hospitals. We will get those too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, but if you don&#8217;t take Medicare or Medicaid, and I predict some hospitals in the future won&#8217;t, then EMTALA is just a bunch of letters. In the UK and Canada there are completely private hospitals. We will get those too.</p>
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		<title>By: TG</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15404</link>
		<dc:creator>TG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15404</guid>
		<description>Frydoc-
I don&#039;t think we are really disagreeing.  The emergency medical condition must be stabilized and/or the patient transferred.  I suppose it depends on the EMC as to whether or not the pain must be reduced or eliminated.  Presumably stabilizing the underlying condition would result in the reduction or elimination of the pain. Like I said, I&#039;ve never come across an EMTALA case that centered around pain.  However, that doesn&#039;t mean they haven&#039;t/don&#039;t happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frydoc-<br />
I don&#8217;t think we are really disagreeing.  The emergency medical condition must be stabilized and/or the patient transferred.  I suppose it depends on the EMC as to whether or not the pain must be reduced or eliminated.  Presumably stabilizing the underlying condition would result in the reduction or elimination of the pain. Like I said, I&#8217;ve never come across an EMTALA case that centered around pain.  However, that doesn&#8217;t mean they haven&#8217;t/don&#8217;t happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Fyrdoc</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15377</link>
		<dc:creator>Fyrdoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 00:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15377</guid>
		<description>TG (and Max),

I agree, pain alone is not the problem.  But my screening has to be the same for every patient with a similar complaint.  Now chest pain and abdominal pain together provide a majority of my patients.  Each requires extensive work up to derive the etiology.  I can not transfer that patient until stabilized (thus, pain-free).  Solely pain? No.  Pain as the symptom of a problem? Must be &quot;stabilized&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TG (and Max),</p>
<p>I agree, pain alone is not the problem.  But my screening has to be the same for every patient with a similar complaint.  Now chest pain and abdominal pain together provide a majority of my patients.  Each requires extensive work up to derive the etiology.  I can not transfer that patient until stabilized (thus, pain-free).  Solely pain? No.  Pain as the symptom of a problem? Must be &#8220;stabilized&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: TG</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15374</link>
		<dc:creator>TG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15374</guid>
		<description>Max- The 6th Circuit recently made EMTALA significantly more &quot;patient friendly&quot;.  Check out Moses v. Providence.  

You are also right about this &quot;severe pain&quot; debate.  Pain is not an emergency medical condition.  It may be a symptom of an EMC, that would require stabilization before transfer or discharge, but I have never seen a case that revolved around a patient&#039;s self-established pain threshold.  And I have looked at a lot of EMTALA cases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max- The 6th Circuit recently made EMTALA significantly more &#8220;patient friendly&#8221;.  Check out Moses v. Providence.  </p>
<p>You are also right about this &#8220;severe pain&#8221; debate.  Pain is not an emergency medical condition.  It may be a symptom of an EMC, that would require stabilization before transfer or discharge, but I have never seen a case that revolved around a patient&#8217;s self-established pain threshold.  And I have looked at a lot of EMTALA cases.</p>
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		<title>By: TG</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15370</link>
		<dc:creator>TG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15370</guid>
		<description>Ahh....the tort reform solution.  Here in Michigan, we have had tort reform, including damage caps, since 1994.  Hospitals continue to close and malpractice premiums are still high.  Obviously that&#039;s just anecdotal evidence, but it&#039;s hardly the only state where that has occurred.  According to the CBO, tort reform measures would save about 50-60 billion over the next 10 years. Why the myopic focus on such a tiny piece of the pie? Although I do love hearing conservatives call for the national government to tell every state in the country how much each and every jury can give out in non-economic damages. It&#039;s such a refreshing example of their view of small government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh&#8230;.the tort reform solution.  Here in Michigan, we have had tort reform, including damage caps, since 1994.  Hospitals continue to close and malpractice premiums are still high.  Obviously that&#8217;s just anecdotal evidence, but it&#8217;s hardly the only state where that has occurred.  According to the CBO, tort reform measures would save about 50-60 billion over the next 10 years. Why the myopic focus on such a tiny piece of the pie? Although I do love hearing conservatives call for the national government to tell every state in the country how much each and every jury can give out in non-economic damages. It&#8217;s such a refreshing example of their view of small government.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15369</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15369</guid>
		<description>I bet you get it in conjunction with single payer. Think it will be a good trade?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I bet you get it in conjunction with single payer. Think it will be a good trade?</p>
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		<title>By: Doc99</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15368</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15368</guid>
		<description>Wow ... and here I thought no one paid attention to what doctors thought. Go figure. Does that mean we&#039;ll get tort reform now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow &#8230; and here I thought no one paid attention to what doctors thought. Go figure. Does that mean we&#8217;ll get tort reform now?</p>
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		<title>By: Max Kennerly</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15365</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Kennerly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15365</guid>
		<description>Two points.

First, &quot;pain&quot; alone is not an emergency condition requiring stabilization under EMTALA, because it is not a condition &quot;such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in ... placing the health of the individual ... in serious jeopardy, serious impairment to bodily functions, or serious dysfunction of any bodily organ or part ...&quot; Again, I know of no cases in which somebody&#039;s &quot;pain goal&quot; was considered an emergency medical condition requiring stabilization, and you haven&#039;t referenced any.

Second, you didn&#039;t read your own quote. The very last case cited held &quot;that providing a screening examination, even if it is negligent under state-created malpractice law, is sufficient to provide full compliance with EMTALA, and that only disparate treatment in the screening process would support a claim,&quot; which is an even harsher rule than the one I stated. Under that rule, absolutely no one can recover under EMTALA unless they can show deliberate disparate treatment due to their ability to pay.

Moreover, those cases are all over 10 years old. I can&#039;t speak for every district and circuit, but, in the ones I know of, EMTALA case law has become even more anti-patient over time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two points.</p>
<p>First, &#8220;pain&#8221; alone is not an emergency condition requiring stabilization under EMTALA, because it is not a condition &#8220;such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in &#8230; placing the health of the individual &#8230; in serious jeopardy, serious impairment to bodily functions, or serious dysfunction of any bodily organ or part &#8230;&#8221; Again, I know of no cases in which somebody&#8217;s &#8220;pain goal&#8221; was considered an emergency medical condition requiring stabilization, and you haven&#8217;t referenced any.</p>
<p>Second, you didn&#8217;t read your own quote. The very last case cited held &#8220;that providing a screening examination, even if it is negligent under state-created malpractice law, is sufficient to provide full compliance with EMTALA, and that only disparate treatment in the screening process would support a claim,&#8221; which is an even harsher rule than the one I stated. Under that rule, absolutely no one can recover under EMTALA unless they can show deliberate disparate treatment due to their ability to pay.</p>
<p>Moreover, those cases are all over 10 years old. I can&#8217;t speak for every district and circuit, but, in the ones I know of, EMTALA case law has become even more anti-patient over time.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2009/12/the-demise-of-american-health-care/#comment-15361</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 12:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=3962#comment-15361</guid>
		<description>Well, if the polls say we should do something, it must be a good thing.  And it must be true.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112818960

According to the above story, a poll of physicians found &quot;nearly three-quarters of physicians supported some form of a public option, either alone or in combination with private insurance options,&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if the polls say we should do something, it must be a good thing.  And it must be true.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112818960" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112818960</a></p>
<p>According to the above story, a poll of physicians found &#8220;nearly three-quarters of physicians supported some form of a public option, either alone or in combination with private insurance options,&#8221;</p>
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