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	<title>Comments on: On Nursing Home Transfers and Liability Reform</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: HueyDoc</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-28438</link>
		<dc:creator>HueyDoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-28438</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt- you&#039;re a lawyer, right ?
Hell yes, defensive medicine works- just like a bullet proof vest works for cops .  99% of the time they don&#039;t need it but when they do, they&#039;re glad they did.   Medicare is going bankrupt from the daily nursing home runs. My favorite was &quot; Good blood pressure, but no pulse&quot; complaint !
Or the ever popular &quot;Dead&quot; so they ship them in an ambulance to keep their stats good and cut down on paperwork filled out.  But the all time favorite is &quot; CPR in progress&quot; on a DNR patient !!!!!  We are severley abused by the nursing homes since all it takes is one idiot with a telephone to call EMS for anything.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt- you&#8217;re a lawyer, right ?<br />
Hell yes, defensive medicine works- just like a bullet proof vest works for cops .  99% of the time they don&#8217;t need it but when they do, they&#8217;re glad they did.   Medicare is going bankrupt from the daily nursing home runs. My favorite was &#8221; Good blood pressure, but no pulse&#8221; complaint !<br />
Or the ever popular &#8220;Dead&#8221; so they ship them in an ambulance to keep their stats good and cut down on paperwork filled out.  But the all time favorite is &#8221; CPR in progress&#8221; on a DNR patient !!!!!  We are severley abused by the nursing homes since all it takes is one idiot with a telephone to call EMS for anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-17166</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-17166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, ok, let&#039;s say we agree with you.  There&#039;s defensive medicine, and loads of it.  And you do it despite no evidence at all it works.  

The problem is what do we do about it?  You&#039;ve told us caps for decades, and there&#039;s no evidence that works.  Yet that remains THE SOLE LEGISLATIVE goal of every one of your proposals.  So why are you still yammering on about it?  Your solution has been proven over decades not to work!  

And you&#039;re right, we don&#039;t need Gerry Spence initially.  We need you.  But when you&#039;re trying to pay those medical bills, and your mortgage, and for all the things your kid needs, you damn sure do need Gerry when that Mack Truck&#039;s insurer says he wasn&#039;t at fault.  

Physicians like to think that life is merely keeping you alive, and everything else is just superflous and unimportant.  It ain&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, ok, let&#8217;s say we agree with you.  There&#8217;s defensive medicine, and loads of it.  And you do it despite no evidence at all it works.  </p>
<p>The problem is what do we do about it?  You&#8217;ve told us caps for decades, and there&#8217;s no evidence that works.  Yet that remains THE SOLE LEGISLATIVE goal of every one of your proposals.  So why are you still yammering on about it?  Your solution has been proven over decades not to work!  </p>
<p>And you&#8217;re right, we don&#8217;t need Gerry Spence initially.  We need you.  But when you&#8217;re trying to pay those medical bills, and your mortgage, and for all the things your kid needs, you damn sure do need Gerry when that Mack Truck&#8217;s insurer says he wasn&#8217;t at fault.  </p>
<p>Physicians like to think that life is merely keeping you alive, and everything else is just superflous and unimportant.  It ain&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-17165</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-17165</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[True.  Medicare in many ways is &quot;if shit goes really south and you can&#039;t do anything to dig out of a hole.&quot;  Maybe you save all your life and invest with a well respected financial adviser who turns out to be running a Ponzi scheme. 

Maybe you invest in the hottest company of the decade where you work, the company touted on the front page of every business magazine, and it turns out the books have been cooked and there&#039;s not a dollar left.

Maybe you get hit by a car, and drain your savings on the medical bills and can no longer work.  

These things happen, and they happen all the time.

That&#039;s why we need Medicare/Medicaid.  The same reason we have insurance for anything else.  Yeah, people should buy on their own, but the fact is we won&#039;t let people die in the streets in this country, so we&#039;re going to pick up the tab one way or another.  Might as well have them pay for some of that cost.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True.  Medicare in many ways is &#8220;if shit goes really south and you can&#8217;t do anything to dig out of a hole.&#8221;  Maybe you save all your life and invest with a well respected financial adviser who turns out to be running a Ponzi scheme. </p>
<p>Maybe you invest in the hottest company of the decade where you work, the company touted on the front page of every business magazine, and it turns out the books have been cooked and there&#8217;s not a dollar left.</p>
<p>Maybe you get hit by a car, and drain your savings on the medical bills and can no longer work.  </p>
<p>These things happen, and they happen all the time.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why we need Medicare/Medicaid.  The same reason we have insurance for anything else.  Yeah, people should buy on their own, but the fact is we won&#8217;t let people die in the streets in this country, so we&#8217;re going to pick up the tab one way or another.  Might as well have them pay for some of that cost.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-17158</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-17158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Defensive medicine is so named because physicians are taking preemptive steps to defend themselves from some bad outcome. Whether that bad outcome is a malpractice lawsuit, a charge of incompetence filed with the state licensing board, or even a patient complaint which could be the tipping point in a physician losing his or her job at a hospital - and would follow that physician around when trying to find another job in the future. 
Blame and bad outcome often amount to the same thing. 
When there is no net negative if a physician decides to perform these unnecessary or low-yield actions but there is a real or perceived gain - what is the motivation not to perform them?

Your arguments about &quot;avoiding blame&quot; above all else are just as ridiculous as those that Matt make. 
ATTENTION PHYSICIANS! &lt;i&gt;For a limited time only&lt;/i&gt;, we&#039;re going to allow you work for 10 cents an hour in sordid working conditions but ... YOU CAN AVOID BLAME! 
Great ad campaign. Pass those around to the hospitals for me, will ya?

Kind of like saying lawyers only have to prove one element of a tort to be successful in court. I have damages, therefore my malpractice claim against my attorney should be successful. 

In reality, there are many facets to making the practice of medicine desirable - both in general, and in a specific state. Many doctors would accept less reimbursement or would work in a less desirable area for a decrease in liability risk.  Conversely, if you pay doctors double what they&#039;re making now, many would probably accept increased liability risk. 

Bottom line is that the more facets of medical practice you make undesirable, the less likely you&#039;ll have medical care available. 

Then again, you can always &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/217295-spence-trial-lawyers-more-important-than-doctors&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;call Gerry Spence&lt;/a&gt; when you get a flat driving down the highway and become a hood ornament on a Mack truck. He&#039;ll know how to fix your ruptured spleen and your kid&#039;s subdural hematoma. No problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Defensive medicine is so named because physicians are taking preemptive steps to defend themselves from some bad outcome. Whether that bad outcome is a malpractice lawsuit, a charge of incompetence filed with the state licensing board, or even a patient complaint which could be the tipping point in a physician losing his or her job at a hospital &#8211; and would follow that physician around when trying to find another job in the future.<br />
Blame and bad outcome often amount to the same thing.<br />
When there is no net negative if a physician decides to perform these unnecessary or low-yield actions but there is a real or perceived gain &#8211; what is the motivation not to perform them?</p>
<p>Your arguments about &#8220;avoiding blame&#8221; above all else are just as ridiculous as those that Matt make.<br />
ATTENTION PHYSICIANS! <i>For a limited time only</i>, we&#8217;re going to allow you work for 10 cents an hour in sordid working conditions but &#8230; YOU CAN AVOID BLAME!<br />
Great ad campaign. Pass those around to the hospitals for me, will ya?</p>
<p>Kind of like saying lawyers only have to prove one element of a tort to be successful in court. I have damages, therefore my malpractice claim against my attorney should be successful. </p>
<p>In reality, there are many facets to making the practice of medicine desirable &#8211; both in general, and in a specific state. Many doctors would accept less reimbursement or would work in a less desirable area for a decrease in liability risk.  Conversely, if you pay doctors double what they&#8217;re making now, many would probably accept increased liability risk. </p>
<p>Bottom line is that the more facets of medical practice you make undesirable, the less likely you&#8217;ll have medical care available. </p>
<p>Then again, you can always <a href="http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/217295-spence-trial-lawyers-more-important-than-doctors" rel="nofollow">call Gerry Spence</a> when you get a flat driving down the highway and become a hood ornament on a Mack truck. He&#8217;ll know how to fix your ruptured spleen and your kid&#8217;s subdural hematoma. No problem.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-17157</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-17157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree ... to a point. 
It&#039;s easy to say that you want the autonomy to determine your own destiny with medical care and retirement income, but the fact of the matter is that most Americans do a poor job of future planning. 
Let&#039;s say that you do get to keep all the tax money you currently pay into the social security system and Medicare system. 
Next week when you get into a head-on car collision and need trauma care but you haven&#039;t saved to pay for treatment, is it OK to refuse you medical care?
That&#039;s the dilemma with which we are faced. No one wants to pay for the services but everyone complains that the services aren&#039;t available when they need them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree &#8230; to a point.<br />
It&#8217;s easy to say that you want the autonomy to determine your own destiny with medical care and retirement income, but the fact of the matter is that most Americans do a poor job of future planning.<br />
Let&#8217;s say that you do get to keep all the tax money you currently pay into the social security system and Medicare system.<br />
Next week when you get into a head-on car collision and need trauma care but you haven&#8217;t saved to pay for treatment, is it OK to refuse you medical care?<br />
That&#8217;s the dilemma with which we are faced. No one wants to pay for the services but everyone complains that the services aren&#8217;t available when they need them.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-17148</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-17148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m young and nothing would please me more than to see medicare die off completely.  And while we&#039;re cleaning off the shelves lets throw social security and medicaid in the bin too.  I&#039;d rather have more money in my pocket (or paycheck if you prefer) at the end of the day than some broken utopian idea of &quot;everyone else will take care of ME&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m young and nothing would please me more than to see medicare die off completely.  And while we&#8217;re cleaning off the shelves lets throw social security and medicaid in the bin too.  I&#8217;d rather have more money in my pocket (or paycheck if you prefer) at the end of the day than some broken utopian idea of &#8220;everyone else will take care of ME&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-17144</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-17144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Matt. Keep in mind the irony here: when you say that defensive medicine is caused by things other than litigation, you are indirectly saying doctor act for motives other than the own economic good.  What is worse for a good doctor, getting blamed or getting sued?  My guess is that most doctors fear just being blamed as their real concern, regardless of whether there is a lawsuit.

Suggesting defensive medicine is a litigation problem suggest all doctors care about is avoiding blame that results in litigation.  I don&#039;t think this is so and Matt is right the statistics in Texas in California don&#039;t bear that out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Matt. Keep in mind the irony here: when you say that defensive medicine is caused by things other than litigation, you are indirectly saying doctor act for motives other than the own economic good.  What is worse for a good doctor, getting blamed or getting sued?  My guess is that most doctors fear just being blamed as their real concern, regardless of whether there is a lawsuit.</p>
<p>Suggesting defensive medicine is a litigation problem suggest all doctors care about is avoiding blame that results in litigation.  I don&#8217;t think this is so and Matt is right the statistics in Texas in California don&#8217;t bear that out.</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-17004</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-17004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[people are welcome to argue until they&#039;re blue in the face that there is no problem with the status quo... just don&#039;t expect medicare to still exist by the time you turn 65]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>people are welcome to argue until they&#8217;re blue in the face that there is no problem with the status quo&#8230; just don&#8217;t expect medicare to still exist by the time you turn 65</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-17002</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-17002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So do those studies.  Show me an example of those studies being fought by plaintiffs attorneys.  I think you&#039;ll find that physicians fight those as much as anyone. From what I&#039;ve read, and admittedly it&#039;s not all the physician commentary out there, there is much debate among physicians about the efficacy of EBM.  Am I incorrect?

&quot; In the same light, clinical pathways which have been developed to help improve both efficiency and patient care have not been accepted in the courts.&quot;

This statement doesn&#039;t make sense.  The &quot;courts&quot; don&#039;t accept or reject these on a wholesale basis.  Remember, PHYSICIANS establish the standard of care.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So do those studies.  Show me an example of those studies being fought by plaintiffs attorneys.  I think you&#8217;ll find that physicians fight those as much as anyone. From what I&#8217;ve read, and admittedly it&#8217;s not all the physician commentary out there, there is much debate among physicians about the efficacy of EBM.  Am I incorrect?</p>
<p>&#8221; In the same light, clinical pathways which have been developed to help improve both efficiency and patient care have not been accepted in the courts.&#8221;</p>
<p>This statement doesn&#8217;t make sense.  The &#8220;courts&#8221; don&#8217;t accept or reject these on a wholesale basis.  Remember, PHYSICIANS establish the standard of care.</p>
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		<title>By: throckmorton</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/02/on-nursing-home-transfers-and-liability-reform/#comment-16999</link>
		<dc:creator>throckmorton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 00:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4330#comment-16999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt:

The answer to what it appropriate medical care and what is defensive can be established by evidence based studies.  These studies allow a definition of what is the standard of care and establish guidelines of how to procede.  These guidelines unfortuantely are fought by plaintiffs attorneys because because they decrease the ability to debate what the &quot;standard of care is&quot;.  I would have thought that they would have been embraced by the legal community because then there would be a cut and dried point to start in the instance of malpractice but it is not turning out that way.  In the same light, clinical pathways which have been developed to help improve both efficiency and patient care have not been accepted in the courts.

In short, there are answers to all these issues, the problem is that attorneys do not want to accept them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt:</p>
<p>The answer to what it appropriate medical care and what is defensive can be established by evidence based studies.  These studies allow a definition of what is the standard of care and establish guidelines of how to procede.  These guidelines unfortuantely are fought by plaintiffs attorneys because because they decrease the ability to debate what the &#8220;standard of care is&#8221;.  I would have thought that they would have been embraced by the legal community because then there would be a cut and dried point to start in the instance of malpractice but it is not turning out that way.  In the same light, clinical pathways which have been developed to help improve both efficiency and patient care have not been accepted in the courts.</p>
<p>In short, there are answers to all these issues, the problem is that attorneys do not want to accept them.</p>
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