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	<title>Comments on: Focus On The Cost</title>
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	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: Ed Julian</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-85126</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-85126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My niece was bitten on big toe April,2011 in Georgia. The hospital, Kennestone, charged her over 8,500.00 per vial of CroFab for a whopping bill of over $112,000.00!! 2 nites in hospital; she had to demand release! During course of applying for assistance, they arbitrarily turned her over to collection atty. She&#039;s from Nicaragua
where 31.00/month covers both health and social security FOR THE FAMILY!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My niece was bitten on big toe April,2011 in Georgia. The hospital, Kennestone, charged her over 8,500.00 per vial of CroFab for a whopping bill of over $112,000.00!! 2 nites in hospital; she had to demand release! During course of applying for assistance, they arbitrarily turned her over to collection atty. She&#8217;s from Nicaragua<br />
where 31.00/month covers both health and social security FOR THE FAMILY!</p>
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		<title>By: Mara</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-58780</link>
		<dc:creator>Mara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2011 15:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-58780</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My son was bitten by a copperhead snake in Texas.  I am self employed and currently paying for maternity care for my daughter since private insurance no longer covers maternity at ALL.  During this lapse in private insurance for my son and I, he got this snakebit and CROFAB was administered.  I had heard some nightmare stories but nothing like the bill I received which now sits at a total of $68,000!!  The CROFAB has a lot of adding and subtracting lines of different amounts.  When i finally did the math, I am being charged for a qty of 10 which adds up to $59,975.00!!!  My son had 4 bags total of this stuff and was in the hospital from midnight on a Sunday night until 5pm on Tuesday.  This is absolutly UNBELIEVABLE and I really would like to know if there is ANYTHING I can do about this outrageous bill!!  Surely there is some legal protection out there.  This liquid cannot possiby cost $6000 per vial if that is what the qty means.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My son was bitten by a copperhead snake in Texas.  I am self employed and currently paying for maternity care for my daughter since private insurance no longer covers maternity at ALL.  During this lapse in private insurance for my son and I, he got this snakebit and CROFAB was administered.  I had heard some nightmare stories but nothing like the bill I received which now sits at a total of $68,000!!  The CROFAB has a lot of adding and subtracting lines of different amounts.  When i finally did the math, I am being charged for a qty of 10 which adds up to $59,975.00!!!  My son had 4 bags total of this stuff and was in the hospital from midnight on a Sunday night until 5pm on Tuesday.  This is absolutly UNBELIEVABLE and I really would like to know if there is ANYTHING I can do about this outrageous bill!!  Surely there is some legal protection out there.  This liquid cannot possiby cost $6000 per vial if that is what the qty means.</p>
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		<title>By: CroFab User</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-23645</link>
		<dc:creator>CroFab User</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-23645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My husband was recently bit by a copperhead and was treated with 4 vials of CroFab at our local hospital. I just received the itemized bill that I requested.. a whopping $14,900 for 4 vials (that comes to $3,725 per vial) Just thought you might would like to know since you had such a hard time finding out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My husband was recently bit by a copperhead and was treated with 4 vials of CroFab at our local hospital. I just received the itemized bill that I requested.. a whopping $14,900 for 4 vials (that comes to $3,725 per vial) Just thought you might would like to know since you had such a hard time finding out.</p>
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		<title>By: The Scrivener</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-17771</link>
		<dc:creator>The Scrivener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-17771</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The stakes in medicine are much higher than in the grocery business. Interestingly, the cheaper hospitals in my city are known as the places with the poorest outcomes, and one is about to close.  The places where everyone gets an MRI when they walk in the door waste a ton of money, but because they have intelligent staff and a reputation for making the right diagnosis, they stay afloat.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The stakes in medicine are much higher than in the grocery business. Interestingly, the cheaper hospitals in my city are known as the places with the poorest outcomes, and one is about to close.  The places where everyone gets an MRI when they walk in the door waste a ton of money, but because they have intelligent staff and a reputation for making the right diagnosis, they stay afloat.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-17721</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 00:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-17721</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joe, 
Several things. 
I&#039;m not saying that doing any of the things I suggested would be easy and I don&#039;t compare them with buying a head of broccoli. I&#039;m contrasting how many people think nothing about spending a half hour plotting how to save 10 cents on groceries, but they refuse to spend any time planning how to potentially save tens of thousands of dollars on their health care costs. 
I don&#039;t blame patients. I blame the thought processes. I don&#039;t agree that people don&#039;t have the time to take affirmative steps. Even if someone has to take a couple of days off of work to go to court, which is better - taking off work or declaring bankruptcy and having to go to court anyway when you get sued for the bills? 
If more and more people started doing these types of things and complaining to their lawmakers, I think the paradigm would change. 
In terms of medical care, I pay out of pocket for my family&#039;s dental care. No insurance. I called around to the dentists in the area, requested prices for cash, even talked to several of the dentists. Settled on one who we have been seeing for quite a while, now. And we actually got to know each other, not just choose some random doctor who will take our insurance for the next 12 months. This is the type of system I think we need to move toward.  
You&#039;re right - the onus should be on the medical providers to provide proper information. To this point it isn&#039;t. The question is ... how do we change to that model? Learned helplessness isn&#039;t the answer. 

Throckmorton, 
I&#039;m making you a write-in candidate for the next Secretary of Health and Human Services.
Not only do you &quot;get it,&quot; but you explain the issues amazingly well. 
We have to sit down for beers some day.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,<br />
Several things.<br />
I&#8217;m not saying that doing any of the things I suggested would be easy and I don&#8217;t compare them with buying a head of broccoli. I&#8217;m contrasting how many people think nothing about spending a half hour plotting how to save 10 cents on groceries, but they refuse to spend any time planning how to potentially save tens of thousands of dollars on their health care costs.<br />
I don&#8217;t blame patients. I blame the thought processes. I don&#8217;t agree that people don&#8217;t have the time to take affirmative steps. Even if someone has to take a couple of days off of work to go to court, which is better &#8211; taking off work or declaring bankruptcy and having to go to court anyway when you get sued for the bills?<br />
If more and more people started doing these types of things and complaining to their lawmakers, I think the paradigm would change.<br />
In terms of medical care, I pay out of pocket for my family&#8217;s dental care. No insurance. I called around to the dentists in the area, requested prices for cash, even talked to several of the dentists. Settled on one who we have been seeing for quite a while, now. And we actually got to know each other, not just choose some random doctor who will take our insurance for the next 12 months. This is the type of system I think we need to move toward.<br />
You&#8217;re right &#8211; the onus should be on the medical providers to provide proper information. To this point it isn&#8217;t. The question is &#8230; how do we change to that model? Learned helplessness isn&#8217;t the answer. </p>
<p>Throckmorton,<br />
I&#8217;m making you a write-in candidate for the next Secretary of Health and Human Services.<br />
Not only do you &#8220;get it,&#8221; but you explain the issues amazingly well.<br />
We have to sit down for beers some day.</p>
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		<title>By: Finn</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-17711</link>
		<dc:creator>Finn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-17711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;You have heart disease, you damn well should know where the best cardiac surgeons are.
You have an aneurysm, yes you should know what hospitals do endovascular repair and who the best surgeons are.
Even the patients in the small town where I moonlight know who the best orthopedic surgeons and the best obstetricians are.
Anyone can make excuses why the information shouldn’t matter, but if people engage in this line of thinking, I don’t sympathize with their arguments.&quot;

All well and good for pre-existing conditions, but what about the new ones? When I learned that I had ovarian cancer, how long should I have spent researching hospitals before scheduling surgery? I know that cancer isn&#039;t an emergency but mine was very aggressive, so a month&#039;s delay could have meant the difference between stage II and stage III.

I&#039;m not surprised that residents of a small town know who the best orthopedic surgeons and OBs are, but I&#039;m a Bostonian. There are 27 hospitals within 15 miles of my house; comparing them all would take far more time than comparing a handful of orthopods or OBs serving a small town even for me, and I work in health care so I have a lot of resources at my fingertips. 

I&#039;m not making excuses why it shouldn&#039;t matter; I&#039;m pointing out that regardless of how much it matters, most people simply can&#039;t get it because they lack the substantial time and/or resources needed to find it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You have heart disease, you damn well should know where the best cardiac surgeons are.<br />
You have an aneurysm, yes you should know what hospitals do endovascular repair and who the best surgeons are.<br />
Even the patients in the small town where I moonlight know who the best orthopedic surgeons and the best obstetricians are.<br />
Anyone can make excuses why the information shouldn’t matter, but if people engage in this line of thinking, I don’t sympathize with their arguments.&#8221;</p>
<p>All well and good for pre-existing conditions, but what about the new ones? When I learned that I had ovarian cancer, how long should I have spent researching hospitals before scheduling surgery? I know that cancer isn&#8217;t an emergency but mine was very aggressive, so a month&#8217;s delay could have meant the difference between stage II and stage III.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not surprised that residents of a small town know who the best orthopedic surgeons and OBs are, but I&#8217;m a Bostonian. There are 27 hospitals within 15 miles of my house; comparing them all would take far more time than comparing a handful of orthopods or OBs serving a small town even for me, and I work in health care so I have a lot of resources at my fingertips. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not making excuses why it shouldn&#8217;t matter; I&#8217;m pointing out that regardless of how much it matters, most people simply can&#8217;t get it because they lack the substantial time and/or resources needed to find it.</p>
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		<title>By: throckmorton</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-17670</link>
		<dc:creator>throckmorton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-17670</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt:

What do you think would happen if the government did compete with auto insurance?  I believe that Medicare and Medicaid should also reimburse the patient, not the provider.  Lets allow the patients to see how their Medicare trust fund money is spent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt:</p>
<p>What do you think would happen if the government did compete with auto insurance?  I believe that Medicare and Medicaid should also reimburse the patient, not the provider.  Lets allow the patients to see how their Medicare trust fund money is spent.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-17658</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 03:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-17658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Throck, I think we agree in large part.  By changing the payee I think you change the payor, so we may be saying the same thing. 

One thing I found interesting about your post was this:

&quot;It is also important to know how insurance companies work. Most if all the money they take in has to go back out in services. They make money on the intrest they make while holding your money. For an insurance company to make the most, it has to be the middle man for the most money. This is done by having the most people pay the most for their care. &quot;

Couple thoughts.  One, it&#039;s not necessarily interest, but it&#039;s investments with the float (see Warren Buffett&#039;s annual letter to shareholders for a readable explanation, as insurance is Berkshire&#039;s true cash cow).  Often insurers actually lose money when you just look at premiums in v. admin costs &amp; paid claims.  That&#039;s part of the business model few realize.  You could tell how few physicians knew it as one of their bases for tort reform in the last &quot;crisis&quot; was that X insurer paid $1.30 for every $1.00 they took in, and therefore insurance was unaffordable and their rates were jacked.  The truth is payouts were steady, but the float income had declined with the recession.  That&#039;s what really mattered and caused the &quot;crisis&quot;.

Point is that people paying the most for their care doesn&#039;t necessarily make the health insurer the most money.  Investing wisely does, although it helps to have a larger premium pool to scale up the returns.  To get that larger pool, insurers will often underprice premiums.  Which works until the returns on the float fail, and voila &quot;crisis&quot;!  Where do they make it up in a down economy?  Jacking premiums.  And again, we may be saying the same thing in different ways about insurance.

The one rub, the elephant in the room, with putting your proposal, which I largely agree with, to work, is that the government is in there paying 1/2 of all healthcare costs.  GEICO (Berkshire company), Allstate, State Farm don&#039;t really compete with the government for car insurance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Throck, I think we agree in large part.  By changing the payee I think you change the payor, so we may be saying the same thing. </p>
<p>One thing I found interesting about your post was this:</p>
<p>&#8220;It is also important to know how insurance companies work. Most if all the money they take in has to go back out in services. They make money on the intrest they make while holding your money. For an insurance company to make the most, it has to be the middle man for the most money. This is done by having the most people pay the most for their care. &#8221;</p>
<p>Couple thoughts.  One, it&#8217;s not necessarily interest, but it&#8217;s investments with the float (see Warren Buffett&#8217;s annual letter to shareholders for a readable explanation, as insurance is Berkshire&#8217;s true cash cow).  Often insurers actually lose money when you just look at premiums in v. admin costs &amp; paid claims.  That&#8217;s part of the business model few realize.  You could tell how few physicians knew it as one of their bases for tort reform in the last &#8220;crisis&#8221; was that X insurer paid $1.30 for every $1.00 they took in, and therefore insurance was unaffordable and their rates were jacked.  The truth is payouts were steady, but the float income had declined with the recession.  That&#8217;s what really mattered and caused the &#8220;crisis&#8221;.</p>
<p>Point is that people paying the most for their care doesn&#8217;t necessarily make the health insurer the most money.  Investing wisely does, although it helps to have a larger premium pool to scale up the returns.  To get that larger pool, insurers will often underprice premiums.  Which works until the returns on the float fail, and voila &#8220;crisis&#8221;!  Where do they make it up in a down economy?  Jacking premiums.  And again, we may be saying the same thing in different ways about insurance.</p>
<p>The one rub, the elephant in the room, with putting your proposal, which I largely agree with, to work, is that the government is in there paying 1/2 of all healthcare costs.  GEICO (Berkshire company), Allstate, State Farm don&#8217;t really compete with the government for car insurance.</p>
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		<title>By: throckmorton</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-17656</link>
		<dc:creator>throckmorton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-17656</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt:

The payor does not have to change, the payee does.  With car insurance you can go and get estimates.  The insurance company then sends you a check.  You then go and have your car fixed, if you are lucky you can find a good deal and not have to spend the whole amount.  Sometimes you want better than the insurance will pay, so you pay extra.  This is how health insurance should be for nonurgent care.  The patient should shop around and be the one who ultimately has to be responsible for the bill.  Right now the insurance customer is not the one negotiating the charges.  You have to keep the client and the money together.

It is also important to know how insurance companies work.  Most if all the money they take in has to go back out in services.  They make money on the intrest they make while holding your money.  For an insurance company to make the most, it has to be the middle man for the most money.  This is done by having the most people pay the most for their care.  In this way the insurnace company gets the most money in intrest.  It is not in their best intrest therefore for costs to be cheaper.  If they are, they have to take in less money and therefore make less in intrest.  This fact is not lost on our politicians who have long realized that the private insurance has offset the nonviability of Medicaid and SCHIP.

Long and short, have patients be the ones that pay the bills, have pateints be the ones who directly have to send money to their health insurance company, and have patieints be the ones who try to get reimbursed.  By doing this, you will have commercials on every channel like GEICO, ALLSTATE, etc trying to get your business and you will have doctors, hospitals and clinics advertising discount colonoscopies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt:</p>
<p>The payor does not have to change, the payee does.  With car insurance you can go and get estimates.  The insurance company then sends you a check.  You then go and have your car fixed, if you are lucky you can find a good deal and not have to spend the whole amount.  Sometimes you want better than the insurance will pay, so you pay extra.  This is how health insurance should be for nonurgent care.  The patient should shop around and be the one who ultimately has to be responsible for the bill.  Right now the insurance customer is not the one negotiating the charges.  You have to keep the client and the money together.</p>
<p>It is also important to know how insurance companies work.  Most if all the money they take in has to go back out in services.  They make money on the intrest they make while holding your money.  For an insurance company to make the most, it has to be the middle man for the most money.  This is done by having the most people pay the most for their care.  In this way the insurnace company gets the most money in intrest.  It is not in their best intrest therefore for costs to be cheaper.  If they are, they have to take in less money and therefore make less in intrest.  This fact is not lost on our politicians who have long realized that the private insurance has offset the nonviability of Medicaid and SCHIP.</p>
<p>Long and short, have patients be the ones that pay the bills, have pateints be the ones who directly have to send money to their health insurance company, and have patieints be the ones who try to get reimbursed.  By doing this, you will have commercials on every channel like GEICO, ALLSTATE, etc trying to get your business and you will have doctors, hospitals and clinics advertising discount colonoscopies.</p>
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		<title>By: throckmorton</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/03/focus-on-the-cost/#comment-17655</link>
		<dc:creator>throckmorton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=4468#comment-17655</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joe:

I am suprised that you couldn&#039;t find out prices.  We quote prices everyday to cash pay patients.  In our area you can call to any number or places and get a price for a cash pay chole, lumlam etc.  These include facilty fees, anesthesia and surgery.  The only resource needed is a phone or an ability to send an email.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe:</p>
<p>I am suprised that you couldn&#8217;t find out prices.  We quote prices everyday to cash pay patients.  In our area you can call to any number or places and get a price for a cash pay chole, lumlam etc.  These include facilty fees, anesthesia and surgery.  The only resource needed is a phone or an ability to send an email.</p>
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