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	<title>Comments on: Destitute Companies Get Health Insurance Pass From Feds</title>
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	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew_M_Garland</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-28028</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew_M_Garland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-28028</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To ThomasS at 6:11 am,

The usual claim that US healthcare costs more and delivers less comes from statistics by the UN World Health Organization.

The WHO health statistics are biased. The WHO itself ranks the US #1 in health care delivery that is important to patients. It issues another ranking of 37th because this quality of care costs more and is not delivered by government in a &quot;fair&quot; way! Critics of US health care always refer to the ranking at 37th. That is a political judgement by the WHO.

The arguments offered against the quality of US health care are based on flawed infant mortality and life expectancy comparisons.

Just two points, with more at the link:

(1) The US follows the WHO definitions exactly for counting a live birth, &quot;even one breath&quot;. Other countries do not count premature births or babies with severe birth defects. The increased deaths of these children raise US numbers for infant mortality and decreases average US life expenctancy accordingly.

(2) The US has far more death from auto accidents and violent crime, but higher survival for cancer and other chronic diseases. Overall mortality is not a good statistic for judging health care effectiveness or population health.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://easyopinions.blogspot.com/2009/01/usa-healthcare-is-first-infant.html#Blog1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;USA Healthcare is First - Infant Mortality is Low&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To ThomasS at 6:11 am,</p>
<p>The usual claim that US healthcare costs more and delivers less comes from statistics by the UN World Health Organization.</p>
<p>The WHO health statistics are biased. The WHO itself ranks the US #1 in health care delivery that is important to patients. It issues another ranking of 37th because this quality of care costs more and is not delivered by government in a &#8220;fair&#8221; way! Critics of US health care always refer to the ranking at 37th. That is a political judgement by the WHO.</p>
<p>The arguments offered against the quality of US health care are based on flawed infant mortality and life expectancy comparisons.</p>
<p>Just two points, with more at the link:</p>
<p>(1) The US follows the WHO definitions exactly for counting a live birth, &#8220;even one breath&#8221;. Other countries do not count premature births or babies with severe birth defects. The increased deaths of these children raise US numbers for infant mortality and decreases average US life expenctancy accordingly.</p>
<p>(2) The US has far more death from auto accidents and violent crime, but higher survival for cancer and other chronic diseases. Overall mortality is not a good statistic for judging health care effectiveness or population health.</p>
<p><a href="http://easyopinions.blogspot.com/2009/01/usa-healthcare-is-first-infant.html#Blog1" rel="nofollow">USA Healthcare is First &#8211; Infant Mortality is Low</a></p>
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		<title>By: ThomasS</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-28013</link>
		<dc:creator>ThomasS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-28013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Going back to Andrew&#039;s question about quality of healthcare and cost, would you consider life expectancy to be a reasonable proxy for overall health care provided?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_compared#Cross-country_comparisons

Lovely plot of flags below the table of numbers.  I could be wrong, but a most of the flags at the top look suspiciously European to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going back to Andrew&#8217;s question about quality of healthcare and cost, would you consider life expectancy to be a reasonable proxy for overall health care provided?</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_compared#Cross-country_comparisons" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_compared#Cross-country_comparisons</a></p>
<p>Lovely plot of flags below the table of numbers.  I could be wrong, but a most of the flags at the top look suspiciously European to me.</p>
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		<title>By: ThomasS</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-28012</link>
		<dc:creator>ThomasS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2010 10:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-28012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Has he contacted, say, German hospitals and inquired if they have a waiting list - in particular a waiting list for people who are prepared to pay privately?

e.g. http://www.health-tourism.com/angioplasty-surgery/germany/

Perhaps France, like Canada makes private clinics and hospitals more or less illegal, I don&#039;t know for sure.  But in England and many other part of Europe there is a second tier.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has he contacted, say, German hospitals and inquired if they have a waiting list &#8211; in particular a waiting list for people who are prepared to pay privately?</p>
<p>e.g. <a href="http://www.health-tourism.com/angioplasty-surgery/germany/" rel="nofollow">http://www.health-tourism.com/angioplasty-surgery/germany/</a></p>
<p>Perhaps France, like Canada makes private clinics and hospitals more or less illegal, I don&#8217;t know for sure.  But in England and many other part of Europe there is a second tier.</p>
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		<title>By: MV</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-27982</link>
		<dc:creator>MV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-27982</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is no doubt that McDonalds is cheap.  I worked for a Fortune 1000 company that contracted with BCBS for health care.  Full coverage (medical, dental, vision) was about $330 a month for a single person.  This was the total plan cost of which I only paid a portion.  If my nearly bankrupt company could afford this, McDonalds certainly can.  

I recently had to replace that coverage as a private individual.  It is not possible at that price.  It is not possible at any price as that level of coverage does not exist in the private inusrance marketplace where I live.  I elected not to buy dental insurance as the coverage is at best break even.  Which leaves the medical.  

The primary cost drivers that can be controlled include prescription coverage and deductibles. The presence or absence of preventive care was not the largest driver of cost.  Prescription coverage, even bad coverage, is expensive.  Lower deductibles (which are coupled with copays) are expensive.  You can&#039;t get catastrophic coverage with low deductibles.  And if you could it wouldn&#039;t save you any money.  Or put another way, in any truly low cost plan, a hospital visit will be a catastrophic due to the deductibles and copays.  At which point you might as well buy the plan that covers doctor visits....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no doubt that McDonalds is cheap.  I worked for a Fortune 1000 company that contracted with BCBS for health care.  Full coverage (medical, dental, vision) was about $330 a month for a single person.  This was the total plan cost of which I only paid a portion.  If my nearly bankrupt company could afford this, McDonalds certainly can.  </p>
<p>I recently had to replace that coverage as a private individual.  It is not possible at that price.  It is not possible at any price as that level of coverage does not exist in the private inusrance marketplace where I live.  I elected not to buy dental insurance as the coverage is at best break even.  Which leaves the medical.  </p>
<p>The primary cost drivers that can be controlled include prescription coverage and deductibles. The presence or absence of preventive care was not the largest driver of cost.  Prescription coverage, even bad coverage, is expensive.  Lower deductibles (which are coupled with copays) are expensive.  You can&#8217;t get catastrophic coverage with low deductibles.  And if you could it wouldn&#8217;t save you any money.  Or put another way, in any truly low cost plan, a hospital visit will be a catastrophic due to the deductibles and copays.  At which point you might as well buy the plan that covers doctor visits&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Nurse K</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-27976</link>
		<dc:creator>Nurse K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-27976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Thomas...

Yes, he would have access to the procedure as long as he paid for it in some way, including credit card, health care financing programs, payment plans, etc.  His problem is not financial, it&#039;s lack of people/procedure space to see him.  

PS No cath labs if you&#039;re having an active MI in England or France either.  You get tPA if anything.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Thomas&#8230;</p>
<p>Yes, he would have access to the procedure as long as he paid for it in some way, including credit card, health care financing programs, payment plans, etc.  His problem is not financial, it&#8217;s lack of people/procedure space to see him.  </p>
<p>PS No cath labs if you&#8217;re having an active MI in England or France either.  You get tPA if anything.</p>
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		<title>By: ThomasS</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-27963</link>
		<dc:creator>ThomasS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-27963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nurse K, would somebody in the US without health insurance have access to the procedure at all?  Any health care system will make mistakes from time to time, and any healthcare system will have some budgetary limits.

At the end of the day, either you are willing, as a society, to pay to provide some minimal level of healthcare to everyone, or you aren&#039;t.  No society is rich enough to give everybody absolutely world class care.  But without some framework for universal coverage you don&#039;t even have a system to fix when it does take too long for a cath.

In England, Germany, Switzerland, and probably quite a few other places in Europe, you can apply for supplemental insurance, and such insurance does increase your access to care.  So you actually have a choice, assuming that you can pay for the additional cover.  In the US the choice often seems to be what your employer happens to provide or nothing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nurse K, would somebody in the US without health insurance have access to the procedure at all?  Any health care system will make mistakes from time to time, and any healthcare system will have some budgetary limits.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, either you are willing, as a society, to pay to provide some minimal level of healthcare to everyone, or you aren&#8217;t.  No society is rich enough to give everybody absolutely world class care.  But without some framework for universal coverage you don&#8217;t even have a system to fix when it does take too long for a cath.</p>
<p>In England, Germany, Switzerland, and probably quite a few other places in Europe, you can apply for supplemental insurance, and such insurance does increase your access to care.  So you actually have a choice, assuming that you can pay for the additional cover.  In the US the choice often seems to be what your employer happens to provide or nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-27951</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 16:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-27951</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So, under the plan you propose, if I were to go to the doctor&#039;s office to get a funny spot on my arm looked at, I would pay full freight; but if I were to come in to have my arm amputated and a full course of chemo, that would be covered?

Such a plan does not seem to encourage efficient patient behavior, especially when the patient is choosing between paying for a doctor visit or the week&#039;s meals. 

A plan which makes regular preventive care visits free would be cheaper over the long run. An annual physical, biannual dental cleaning, routine vaccinations and the like should all be covered with no deductible and no hassle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, under the plan you propose, if I were to go to the doctor&#8217;s office to get a funny spot on my arm looked at, I would pay full freight; but if I were to come in to have my arm amputated and a full course of chemo, that would be covered?</p>
<p>Such a plan does not seem to encourage efficient patient behavior, especially when the patient is choosing between paying for a doctor visit or the week&#8217;s meals. </p>
<p>A plan which makes regular preventive care visits free would be cheaper over the long run. An annual physical, biannual dental cleaning, routine vaccinations and the like should all be covered with no deductible and no hassle.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-27947</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-27947</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This whole thing is a disaster, but it&#039;s already underway so all you can do is shake your head and chuckle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole thing is a disaster, but it&#8217;s already underway so all you can do is shake your head and chuckle.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-27945</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-27945</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Poor Cigna’s profit increased 346% from 2008-2009. I don’t know how they stay in business.&quot;

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Cigna+settles+class-action+suit+with+physicians+for+$400M+%2B-a0109025518

Perhaps if you greedy physicians weren&#039;t suing them for so much money, and threatening them with sympathetic juries, they&#039;d be able to give more people health insurance at a better rate.  When can we get some protection for health insurers like the physicians want for their liability carriers?

It all depends on whose ox is being gored for you, doesn&#039;t it WC?  

And the irony of a physician engaging in the &quot;They already make lots of money&quot; cry is rich!  You hate it when health reformers start talking about physicians&#039; salaries.

At least be consistent man.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Poor Cigna’s profit increased 346% from 2008-2009. I don’t know how they stay in business.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Cigna+settles+class-action+suit+with+physicians+for+$400M+%2B-a0109025518" rel="nofollow">http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Cigna+settles+class-action+suit+with+physicians+for+$400M+%2B-a0109025518</a></p>
<p>Perhaps if you greedy physicians weren&#8217;t suing them for so much money, and threatening them with sympathetic juries, they&#8217;d be able to give more people health insurance at a better rate.  When can we get some protection for health insurers like the physicians want for their liability carriers?</p>
<p>It all depends on whose ox is being gored for you, doesn&#8217;t it WC?  </p>
<p>And the irony of a physician engaging in the &#8220;They already make lots of money&#8221; cry is rich!  You hate it when health reformers start talking about physicians&#8217; salaries.</p>
<p>At least be consistent man.</p>
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		<title>By: Nurse K</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2010/10/destitute-companies-get-health-insurance-pass-from-feds/#comment-27902</link>
		<dc:creator>Nurse K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 04:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=5621#comment-27902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Am I the only one that thinks mandating that every single person in the US have &quot;unlimited&quot; coverage by 2014 or whatever is going to cause us to dump into a cesspool worse than the Great Depression?  Even my insurance has a one million dollar lifetime cap, and, hey, guess what?  

Better start to learn to garden and kill squirrels in the backyard for stew, ladies, because everything&#039;s about to get way, way, way more expensive come 2014.  Buy all the crap you want for the next decade or so now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I the only one that thinks mandating that every single person in the US have &#8220;unlimited&#8221; coverage by 2014 or whatever is going to cause us to dump into a cesspool worse than the Great Depression?  Even my insurance has a one million dollar lifetime cap, and, hey, guess what?  </p>
<p>Better start to learn to garden and kill squirrels in the backyard for stew, ladies, because everything&#8217;s about to get way, way, way more expensive come 2014.  Buy all the crap you want for the next decade or so now.</p>
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