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	<title>Comments on: Healthcare Update &#8212; 03/12/2012</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84170</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 23:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84170</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was just asking the question based on your link.  It seems you would agree that it&#039;s possible that there was negligence in this case.  Therefore, I agree with you that we should wait until all the facts are in before saying who is wrong or right.  Relying on press releases is probably bad practice.

The lawyer alone can&#039;t prove a physician is negligent.  It takes another physician.  

&quot; then won’t lawyers vilify doctors even more for killing patients with an “unnecessary test”?&quot;

I don&#039;t know.  Have they ever before?  Considering it would take another physician to opine as to the unnecessary nature of the test at trial, probably not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just asking the question based on your link.  It seems you would agree that it&#8217;s possible that there was negligence in this case.  Therefore, I agree with you that we should wait until all the facts are in before saying who is wrong or right.  Relying on press releases is probably bad practice.</p>
<p>The lawyer alone can&#8217;t prove a physician is negligent.  It takes another physician.  </p>
<p>&#8221; then won’t lawyers vilify doctors even more for killing patients with an “unnecessary test”?&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know.  Have they ever before?  Considering it would take another physician to opine as to the unnecessary nature of the test at trial, probably not.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84157</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a rural emergency physician, I would rather have a teleradiologist, than NO radiologist. That&#039;s the choice, period. 

A dark room with a computer screen is about the same whether it is 50 yards or 500 miles away.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a rural emergency physician, I would rather have a teleradiologist, than NO radiologist. That&#8217;s the choice, period. </p>
<p>A dark room with a computer screen is about the same whether it is 50 yards or 500 miles away.</p>
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		<title>By: midwest woman</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84154</link>
		<dc:creator>midwest woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84154</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good points. Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84142</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I live in a town of 9000 people. If I end up in the ED of the local hospital, I don&#039;t give a rip where the person looking at my inards is so long as they know what they are doing.

Think about it this way: small hospitals have a hard time supporting staff. What if you developed a firm of radiologists, all in one building, with HD monitors and a trunk line. You get a &quot;film&quot;, upload it to the firm, and their 24/7 staff send you a result. 
They should all be pretty good at what they do, if it is all that they do.

Just a thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in a town of 9000 people. If I end up in the ED of the local hospital, I don&#8217;t give a rip where the person looking at my inards is so long as they know what they are doing.</p>
<p>Think about it this way: small hospitals have a hard time supporting staff. What if you developed a firm of radiologists, all in one building, with HD monitors and a trunk line. You get a &#8220;film&#8221;, upload it to the firm, and their 24/7 staff send you a result.<br />
They should all be pretty good at what they do, if it is all that they do.</p>
<p>Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84141</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84141</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think that the locus of the services being performed (on-site versus off-site) makes any difference in the readings. If there is a critical finding, I get called either way. 
If others disagree with me, I&#039;d like to get their feedback.

And look at it from another perspective: In many cases - especially in rural hospitals - it is cost-prohibitive to have a radiologist in-house 24/7. Is it better to have 24 hour access to someone who can read the tests quickly or is it better to wait a day or more for the results to be read by the in-house radiologist?

With all of the cost-cutting measures taking place in medicine right now, teleradiology/telemedicine is going to become more common, not less common.

It is absurd for the plaintiff attorney in this case to be babbling to the media about off-site radiologists as if their location made any difference in the case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think that the locus of the services being performed (on-site versus off-site) makes any difference in the readings. If there is a critical finding, I get called either way.<br />
If others disagree with me, I&#8217;d like to get their feedback.</p>
<p>And look at it from another perspective: In many cases &#8211; especially in rural hospitals &#8211; it is cost-prohibitive to have a radiologist in-house 24/7. Is it better to have 24 hour access to someone who can read the tests quickly or is it better to wait a day or more for the results to be read by the in-house radiologist?</p>
<p>With all of the cost-cutting measures taking place in medicine right now, teleradiology/telemedicine is going to become more common, not less common.</p>
<p>It is absurd for the plaintiff attorney in this case to be babbling to the media about off-site radiologists as if their location made any difference in the case.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84136</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84136</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In a vast majority of cases, prompt management will have a negligible effect. 
First consider that median time from symptom onset to presentation is 24 hours - which already puts most patients in a category with much higher mortality.
Of those patients that arrive promptly to the emergency department, they don&#039;t come to the ED saying &quot;I have a mesenteric clot.&quot; They come to the ED saying &quot;I have abdominal pain.&quot; Standard initial workup for such patients includes labs, IV fluids, pain meds. If symptoms don&#039;t improve, then the patient will likely have a CT scan. Depending on several factors, presentation to CT report will be another 4-6 hours.
Then, if colitis is suspected, infectious causes are much more common than ischemic causes. Patient is started on antibiotics. GI consult called. Prepped for upper/lower GI the following day. 

Let&#039;s say that we perform angiography on every patient with abdominal pain so that we catch the small proportion of patients that present within time to save their lives. Because the disease is quite rare to begin with, we&#039;re going to do an awful lot of &quot;unnecessary&quot; testing - right? After all, when the result of a test was negative, the test probably shouldn&#039;t have been performed, right? 
Now mesenteric angiograms are not without risks. You can actually cause a clot in the mesentery by injecting the dye. There are allergic reactions to the dye. The dye may cause kidney failure. Infections can develop. The catheter can perforate a blood vessel requiring urgent surgery to fix the problem. So we&#039;re now introducing all of these risks to more than 99.9% of patients to try to save the one person who may present in enough time and who may be stable enough to take to surgery and who will be medically healthy enough to survive the high perioperative mortality rate. 

It takes a very astute physician to catch a case of mesenteric ischemia and even in those cases that are caught &quot;promptly,&quot; the outcomes are usually suboptimal. 

So if a patient with abdominal pain who doesn&#039;t have mesenteric ischemia gets an angiogram and dies from the testing, then won&#039;t lawyers vilify doctors even more for killing patients with an &quot;unnecessary test&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a vast majority of cases, prompt management will have a negligible effect.<br />
First consider that median time from symptom onset to presentation is 24 hours &#8211; which already puts most patients in a category with much higher mortality.<br />
Of those patients that arrive promptly to the emergency department, they don&#8217;t come to the ED saying &#8220;I have a mesenteric clot.&#8221; They come to the ED saying &#8220;I have abdominal pain.&#8221; Standard initial workup for such patients includes labs, IV fluids, pain meds. If symptoms don&#8217;t improve, then the patient will likely have a CT scan. Depending on several factors, presentation to CT report will be another 4-6 hours.<br />
Then, if colitis is suspected, infectious causes are much more common than ischemic causes. Patient is started on antibiotics. GI consult called. Prepped for upper/lower GI the following day. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say that we perform angiography on every patient with abdominal pain so that we catch the small proportion of patients that present within time to save their lives. Because the disease is quite rare to begin with, we&#8217;re going to do an awful lot of &#8220;unnecessary&#8221; testing &#8211; right? After all, when the result of a test was negative, the test probably shouldn&#8217;t have been performed, right?<br />
Now mesenteric angiograms are not without risks. You can actually cause a clot in the mesentery by injecting the dye. There are allergic reactions to the dye. The dye may cause kidney failure. Infections can develop. The catheter can perforate a blood vessel requiring urgent surgery to fix the problem. So we&#8217;re now introducing all of these risks to more than 99.9% of patients to try to save the one person who may present in enough time and who may be stable enough to take to surgery and who will be medically healthy enough to survive the high perioperative mortality rate. </p>
<p>It takes a very astute physician to catch a case of mesenteric ischemia and even in those cases that are caught &#8220;promptly,&#8221; the outcomes are usually suboptimal. </p>
<p>So if a patient with abdominal pain who doesn&#8217;t have mesenteric ischemia gets an angiogram and dies from the testing, then won&#8217;t lawyers vilify doctors even more for killing patients with an &#8220;unnecessary test&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: midwest woman</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84126</link>
		<dc:creator>midwest woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What&#039;s your opinion of tele-radiology? Wouldn&#039;t you want to know a physician co-worker?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s your opinion of tele-radiology? Wouldn&#8217;t you want to know a physician co-worker?</p>
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		<title>By: Tarl</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84125</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;prompt&quot; for mesenteric ischemia, is an hour - assuming there is anything the surgeon could do, even if he had a knife inside her belly within that hour of the problem manifesting (note, manifesting, not arriving at ER).

My understanding is that good outcomes for mesenteric ischemia are when they are caused by abdominal trauma (e.g., car accident), and are brought into the ER within minutes of the accident, and there is something the surgeon can do to repair circulation. When the problem is the result of a degenerative condition (e.g., arteriosclerosis), there isn&#039;t the obvious justification to cut someone open as soon as they arrive at the ER.

Which doesn&#039;t mean the radiologist is off the hook - we don&#039;t know if he should have seen something on the scan. But from the description we&#039;ve seen of this case, that lady&#039;s fate was probably sealed before she got to the hospital, let alone by the time the radiologist was called.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;prompt&#8221; for mesenteric ischemia, is an hour &#8211; assuming there is anything the surgeon could do, even if he had a knife inside her belly within that hour of the problem manifesting (note, manifesting, not arriving at ER).</p>
<p>My understanding is that good outcomes for mesenteric ischemia are when they are caused by abdominal trauma (e.g., car accident), and are brought into the ER within minutes of the accident, and there is something the surgeon can do to repair circulation. When the problem is the result of a degenerative condition (e.g., arteriosclerosis), there isn&#8217;t the obvious justification to cut someone open as soon as they arrive at the ER.</p>
<p>Which doesn&#8217;t mean the radiologist is off the hook &#8211; we don&#8217;t know if he should have seen something on the scan. But from the description we&#8217;ve seen of this case, that lady&#8217;s fate was probably sealed before she got to the hospital, let alone by the time the radiologist was called.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84112</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In your link on the mortality rate in the WVa case, right after it gives that number, it says:

&quot;The successful outcome is dependent upon a high index of suspicion and prompt management.&quot;

Isn&#039;t that the crux of this case as far as liability goes?  Was the management prompt?

The mortality rate might go to damages, but do you think it bears on whether the treatment or lack thereof was negligent?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your link on the mortality rate in the WVa case, right after it gives that number, it says:</p>
<p>&#8220;The successful outcome is dependent upon a high index of suspicion and prompt management.&#8221;</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that the crux of this case as far as liability goes?  Was the management prompt?</p>
<p>The mortality rate might go to damages, but do you think it bears on whether the treatment or lack thereof was negligent?</p>
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		<title>By: DataGirl</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/03/healthcare-update-03122012/#comment-84107</link>
		<dc:creator>DataGirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=7851#comment-84107</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Item 1 above...one of the scariest places I have been...the ED.  I rarely go.  But I had to.  And there was this CRAZY man going apeshit out there.  And during his screaming tirade he took a gurney and pushed it with all his wild might...and you guessed it...the damn thing became a battering ram to the door of the room in which yours truly was being seen.  The doc jumped and I was speechless and scared to death thinking that man would run into my room and commit Lord knows what.  The doc asked me if I wanted him to stand in front of the door.  Uh, no, doc, because if this crazy fool decides to fling it open, well you are the first one to get hit.  A few more minutes of screaming and things flying everywhere it went absolutely silent.  It took a while for the heartrate to come back down. I never knew why they had so many damn cops there.  Now I know.  Stay safe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Item 1 above&#8230;one of the scariest places I have been&#8230;the ED.  I rarely go.  But I had to.  And there was this CRAZY man going apeshit out there.  And during his screaming tirade he took a gurney and pushed it with all his wild might&#8230;and you guessed it&#8230;the damn thing became a battering ram to the door of the room in which yours truly was being seen.  The doc jumped and I was speechless and scared to death thinking that man would run into my room and commit Lord knows what.  The doc asked me if I wanted him to stand in front of the door.  Uh, no, doc, because if this crazy fool decides to fling it open, well you are the first one to get hit.  A few more minutes of screaming and things flying everywhere it went absolutely silent.  It took a while for the heartrate to come back down. I never knew why they had so many damn cops there.  Now I know.  Stay safe.</p>
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