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	<title>Comments on: No Fingers Allowed</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96422</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure what a leukemic patient with GI bleeding has to do with false positive hemoccult results. 
The &quot;truth of the matter&quot; is that you cannot cite one source to substantiate your assertion that DREs are more likely than stool to cause bleeding in patients with low platelet counts. You assert facts where none exist. 
Your assertion that &quot;fingers are harder and sharper than stool&quot; is also wrong, but since most readers of this blog have both fingers and pass stool, I&#039;ll let them judge the veracity of your statement.
You still haven&#039;t answered the questions posed above.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure what a leukemic patient with GI bleeding has to do with false positive hemoccult results.<br />
The &#8220;truth of the matter&#8221; is that you cannot cite one source to substantiate your assertion that DREs are more likely than stool to cause bleeding in patients with low platelet counts. You assert facts where none exist.<br />
Your assertion that &#8220;fingers are harder and sharper than stool&#8221; is also wrong, but since most readers of this blog have both fingers and pass stool, I&#8217;ll let them judge the veracity of your statement.<br />
You still haven&#8217;t answered the questions posed above.</p>
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		<title>By: Ondo</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96365</link>
		<dc:creator>Ondo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is the funniest damn thing I&#039;ve read all week.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the funniest damn thing I&#8217;ve read all week.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. N</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96364</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not aware of any data for hemoccult testing in any setting other then colorectal cancer screening. So, who knows?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not aware of any data for hemoccult testing in any setting other then colorectal cancer screening. So, who knows?</p>
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		<title>By: RSDS</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96363</link>
		<dc:creator>RSDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How accurate is a hemoccult card test for someone with active fissures and/or bleeding gums?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How accurate is a hemoccult card test for someone with active fissures and/or bleeding gums?</p>
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		<title>By: Skeptical Scalpel</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96326</link>
		<dc:creator>Skeptical Scalpel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 14:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just couldn&#039;t resist commenting. White Coat, you are so spot on. Is it not ludicrous to do a test the results of which &quot;may not be accurate&quot;? 

We don&#039;t need the lab to tell us that the test may not be accurate. We all know that stool for occult blood can give both false positive and false negative results. But being doctors, we factor in that knowledge with the clinical situation.

I am proud to say that having recently passed the hospital&#039;s inservice, I have been credentialed to perform fecal hemoccult tests without supervision. Hence, the lab is no longer in the loop.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just couldn&#8217;t resist commenting. White Coat, you are so spot on. Is it not ludicrous to do a test the results of which &#8220;may not be accurate&#8221;? </p>
<p>We don&#8217;t need the lab to tell us that the test may not be accurate. We all know that stool for occult blood can give both false positive and false negative results. But being doctors, we factor in that knowledge with the clinical situation.</p>
<p>I am proud to say that having recently passed the hospital&#8217;s inservice, I have been credentialed to perform fecal hemoccult tests without supervision. Hence, the lab is no longer in the loop.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96302</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 05:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had a patient with new leukemia.  Platelets were 16, hgb was like 6.  She had a rectal exam, which of course resulted in a positive OB.  She was thus admitted for a GI bleed.  Her new leukemia was overlooked until someone finally requested a hematology consult 2 days later.  While I seriously question this practitioner&#039;s abilities missing that diagnosis anyways, the truth of the matter is that with low platelets a DRE will cause bleeding.  Often times these patients do require laxatives so that they won&#039;t have bleeding with bowel movements.  And yes, a finger is harder and sharper than stool.  We don&#039;t do rectal temperatures, exams, or medications in people with platelets under 50 for this reason.

I do agree, however, that many laboratory tests can have false positives and negatives, so why do they single this one out?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a patient with new leukemia.  Platelets were 16, hgb was like 6.  She had a rectal exam, which of course resulted in a positive OB.  She was thus admitted for a GI bleed.  Her new leukemia was overlooked until someone finally requested a hematology consult 2 days later.  While I seriously question this practitioner&#8217;s abilities missing that diagnosis anyways, the truth of the matter is that with low platelets a DRE will cause bleeding.  Often times these patients do require laxatives so that they won&#8217;t have bleeding with bowel movements.  And yes, a finger is harder and sharper than stool.  We don&#8217;t do rectal temperatures, exams, or medications in people with platelets under 50 for this reason.</p>
<p>I do agree, however, that many laboratory tests can have false positives and negatives, so why do they single this one out?</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96239</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 15:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96239</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Once again, we have someone who knows little or anything about the clinical practice of medicine who is opining on the merits of ... the clinical practice of medicine. 

&quot;I am a clinical lab scientist and had a rectal exam once, therefore I have conclusive knowledge about how doctors perform rectal exams.&quot; Based on my extensive experience watching Dr. Edward Scissorhands and his progeny perform rectal exams, it is my opinion that patients are lucky they don&#039;t need post-rectal exam &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominoperineal_resection&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;abdominoperineal resections&lt;/a&gt;. 

Rectal exams *could* cause bleeding. Labs want to *ensure* that clinicians get accurate results. Does your masters degree having wife possess any evidence that rectal exams *do* cause rectal bleeding more than bowel movements in her renowned hospital files? Any scientific evidence how these policies *ensure* proper clinical results? Studies maybe? Percentages of cases? Perhaps she has published a paper on the topic. Any scientific evidence at all, counselor? Do you think your wife would get past a Daubert hearing on the topic with her qualifications?
And why doesn&#039;t your wife&#039;s clinical laboratory publish disclaimers about all the conditions that may affect a laboratory sodium value? Or doesn&#039;t your wife&#039;s renowned hospital think that &quot;ensuring&quot; clinicians get accurate sodium results is important?

Come to think of it, I flew on an airplane once and I watch flight patterns on www.flightaware.com all the time. Perhaps I should contact the FAA to give them my opinions about air traffic control. 

I&#039;m glad that your wife and all of the clinical laboratory scientists think it is medically essential to verify the source of these samples before running them. 

After all, for all we know the samples could be brain biopsies from the people who create these policies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, we have someone who knows little or anything about the clinical practice of medicine who is opining on the merits of &#8230; the clinical practice of medicine. </p>
<p>&#8220;I am a clinical lab scientist and had a rectal exam once, therefore I have conclusive knowledge about how doctors perform rectal exams.&#8221; Based on my extensive experience watching Dr. Edward Scissorhands and his progeny perform rectal exams, it is my opinion that patients are lucky they don&#8217;t need post-rectal exam <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominoperineal_resection" rel="nofollow">abdominoperineal resections</a>. </p>
<p>Rectal exams *could* cause bleeding. Labs want to *ensure* that clinicians get accurate results. Does your masters degree having wife possess any evidence that rectal exams *do* cause rectal bleeding more than bowel movements in her renowned hospital files? Any scientific evidence how these policies *ensure* proper clinical results? Studies maybe? Percentages of cases? Perhaps she has published a paper on the topic. Any scientific evidence at all, counselor? Do you think your wife would get past a Daubert hearing on the topic with her qualifications?<br />
And why doesn&#8217;t your wife&#8217;s clinical laboratory publish disclaimers about all the conditions that may affect a laboratory sodium value? Or doesn&#8217;t your wife&#8217;s renowned hospital think that &#8220;ensuring&#8221; clinicians get accurate sodium results is important?</p>
<p>Come to think of it, I flew on an airplane once and I watch flight patterns on <a href="http://www.flightaware.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.flightaware.com</a> all the time. Perhaps I should contact the FAA to give them my opinions about air traffic control. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad that your wife and all of the clinical laboratory scientists think it is medically essential to verify the source of these samples before running them. </p>
<p>After all, for all we know the samples could be brain biopsies from the people who create these policies.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. N</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96183</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 21:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stool occult blood is a useless test in the ED anyway. We shouldn&#039;t be doing it ever, unless you are screening for colon cancer, the only thing it is validated for, and if that&#039;s what you are using it for you are probably doing it wrong anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stool occult blood is a useless test in the ED anyway. We shouldn&#8217;t be doing it ever, unless you are screening for colon cancer, the only thing it is validated for, and if that&#8217;s what you are using it for you are probably doing it wrong anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96162</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 17:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read this comment thread with great interest.  I&#039;m just a lawyer, but it just so happens that my wife is a clinical laboratory scientist at a  renowned local hospital, with a degree in medical technology.  Before that, she was a training specialist for a company that manufactured hemoccult cards.

I sent her the post because I thought she&#039;d find it interesting.  This is what she says:

&quot;Fingers can rip the anus making it bleed so then you don&#039;t really know if the positive blood result is from that or an actual internal bleed.  The disclaimer is necessary because lab staff doesn&#039;t collect the sample and we do not know how they obtained it.  There are special kits available to properly collect the sample.  Docs never want to attend continuing ed sessions for POC lab testing but they always mess it up.  If the lab had it our own way, we&#039;d dicontinue all POC testing. All accurate test results begin with a quality sample.&quot;

From my perspective, I have to call BS on WhiteCoat&#039;s reply to Christine.  Having had the experience of both a digital rectal exam and a bowel movement, anecdotally it isn&#039;t hard to imagine that the DRE is way more likely to cause a tear than a big brown toilet trout is. 

So it seems like the disclaimer is there to tell the physician &quot;if you didn&#039;t do the test right (and experience tells us you often don&#039;t) the results may not be right, so don&#039;t blame us.&quot;  This seems not litigation-driven, but designed to ensure that the clinician gets an accurate result, or if they know the sample was rectally collected, to tell them that they should be aware of the increased potential for a false positive.

Don&#039;t get me wrong, I am sure there are instances where liability-driven disclaimers exist.  This doesn&#039;t look like one though.  I think because WC has a hammer, the disclaimer looks like a nail to him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read this comment thread with great interest.  I&#8217;m just a lawyer, but it just so happens that my wife is a clinical laboratory scientist at a  renowned local hospital, with a degree in medical technology.  Before that, she was a training specialist for a company that manufactured hemoccult cards.</p>
<p>I sent her the post because I thought she&#8217;d find it interesting.  This is what she says:</p>
<p>&#8220;Fingers can rip the anus making it bleed so then you don&#8217;t really know if the positive blood result is from that or an actual internal bleed.  The disclaimer is necessary because lab staff doesn&#8217;t collect the sample and we do not know how they obtained it.  There are special kits available to properly collect the sample.  Docs never want to attend continuing ed sessions for POC lab testing but they always mess it up.  If the lab had it our own way, we&#8217;d dicontinue all POC testing. All accurate test results begin with a quality sample.&#8221;</p>
<p>From my perspective, I have to call BS on WhiteCoat&#8217;s reply to Christine.  Having had the experience of both a digital rectal exam and a bowel movement, anecdotally it isn&#8217;t hard to imagine that the DRE is way more likely to cause a tear than a big brown toilet trout is. </p>
<p>So it seems like the disclaimer is there to tell the physician &#8220;if you didn&#8217;t do the test right (and experience tells us you often don&#8217;t) the results may not be right, so don&#8217;t blame us.&#8221;  This seems not litigation-driven, but designed to ensure that the clinician gets an accurate result, or if they know the sample was rectally collected, to tell them that they should be aware of the increased potential for a false positive.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I am sure there are instances where liability-driven disclaimers exist.  This doesn&#8217;t look like one though.  I think because WC has a hammer, the disclaimer looks like a nail to him.</p>
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		<title>By: doc99</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2012/08/no-fingers-allowed/#comment-96146</link>
		<dc:creator>doc99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 13:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=8427#comment-96146</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So the take home message is that Hemoccult results &quot;Ain&#039;t Worth SH*T.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the take home message is that Hemoccult results &#8220;Ain&#8217;t Worth SH*T.&#8221;</p>
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