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	<title>Comments on: Art Kellermann Rand Rant</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/</link>
	<description>A blog from inside the emergency department</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 00:58:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117784</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unbelievable. Do you know how UK hospitals &quot;solved&quot; the problem of ED overcrowding? Why, they just &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/16/patients-face-wait-ambulance&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;keep the patients waiting in the ambulance outside the hospital&lt;/a&gt;! Problem solved! Except now you have another problem where an ambulance is stuck in the hospital parking lot instead of servicing the community. Sorry, no refunds!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unbelievable. Do you know how UK hospitals &#8220;solved&#8221; the problem of ED overcrowding? Why, they just <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/16/patients-face-wait-ambulance" rel="nofollow">keep the patients waiting in the ambulance outside the hospital</a>! Problem solved! Except now you have another problem where an ambulance is stuck in the hospital parking lot instead of servicing the community. Sorry, no refunds!</p>
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		<title>By: BirdStrike</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117778</link>
		<dc:creator>BirdStrike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117778</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find it quite ironic that our current national hospital bed, and ED overcrowding crises aren&#039;t enough to make sensible people rethink current &quot;Certificate of Need&quot; laws.  It&#039;s just one of countless examples of the government creating and fostering a crisis, then using it as political fuel to get re-elected to &quot;fix&quot; the crisis they&#039;ve created with more false solutions that just perpetuate the cycle.

We will know when we are serious about solving our health care crises when we stop supporting such policies which are nothing more than a monopoly over such shortages to ensure that hospitals profit from them, at the expense of patients.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it quite ironic that our current national hospital bed, and ED overcrowding crises aren&#8217;t enough to make sensible people rethink current &#8220;Certificate of Need&#8221; laws.  It&#8217;s just one of countless examples of the government creating and fostering a crisis, then using it as political fuel to get re-elected to &#8220;fix&#8221; the crisis they&#8217;ve created with more false solutions that just perpetuate the cycle.</p>
<p>We will know when we are serious about solving our health care crises when we stop supporting such policies which are nothing more than a monopoly over such shortages to ensure that hospitals profit from them, at the expense of patients.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Trueger</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117763</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Trueger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117763</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;What happens when the hospital doesn’t have sufficient staffing for the inpatient beds? Still cram patients on the floors and overwork the available nurses?&quot;

The status quo is to keep all the admitted patients in the ED, where nursing ratios quickly approach or exceed 1:12. Is it somehow safer to keep all of the admitted patients in the ED hallways in order to maintain nursing ratios on the floors? Viccellios main point is that it makes much more sense to put 1 boarder in each inpatient unit instead of keeping them all in 1 unit (the ED) which has a limited supply of nurses, as well as a steady flow of new patients.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What happens when the hospital doesn’t have sufficient staffing for the inpatient beds? Still cram patients on the floors and overwork the available nurses?&#8221;</p>
<p>The status quo is to keep all the admitted patients in the ED, where nursing ratios quickly approach or exceed 1:12. Is it somehow safer to keep all of the admitted patients in the ED hallways in order to maintain nursing ratios on the floors? Viccellios main point is that it makes much more sense to put 1 boarder in each inpatient unit instead of keeping them all in 1 unit (the ED) which has a limited supply of nurses, as well as a steady flow of new patients.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117753</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You have dishes in your sink? Holy shit. That is a telltale sign of a poorly run household. 
We should have your landlord come and investigate you. 
Insurance companies should come and review your homeowner&#039;s policy - after all, sink dishes could cause a flood, which could start an electrical fire, which could burn down the entire apartment complex, injuring or killing every person on the city block. 
Obviously the problem is because you are trying to wash too many pots and pans which unjustly crowds out the kiddie cups and the cheap food storage containers. You really need to focus on the cheap dishes and shouldn&#039;t wash pots nearly as much. Who cares if you can&#039;t cook your food and eventually you have to leave your apartment? YOU HAVE DISHES IN THE SINK, DAMMIT!

You&#039;re right that the process involves three aspects of input, throughput, and output. However, you oversimplify the issues involving those three processes. 

I work in a couple of different places and both of their departments become overcrowded for different reasons. 

Viccellio&#039;s study didn&#039;t compare outcomes of ED boarded patients with outcomes of floor hallway patients. It compared patients in inpatient beds versus patients in inpatient hallways. A comparison of outcomes in what we&#039;re trying to measure, including effects on patient flow in the ED and even the effects on hospital income would be a much better way to study the issue. Unfortunately, given the varying acuity of ED patients, the results would likely be difficult to interpret. 
Also, the study didn&#039;t (and probably couldn&#039;t) account for the &quot;high maintenance&quot; patients in the ED. Can&#039;t really put vents, drips, monitors, psych patients, ect in a hallway. What do you do when your ED is full of these patients waiting for beds?  

What happens when the hospital doesn&#039;t have sufficient staffing for the inpatient beds? Still cram patients on the floors and overwork the available nurses? When mistakes increase, then who gets blamed? Would you be OK with your mom being put in a hallway with two nurses trying to cover (and write electronic notes on) 24 patients? If not, why? What&#039;s the maximum number of patients that should be covered per nurse? What if the patients are high-maintenance?
What happens when nurses become fed up with being overworked and leave for another job. Then there are even fewer staff available to care for patients. Then what? 
What happens when six patients register to be seen in a small ED within 30 minutes of each other, the ED only has 6 beds, and 4 of them are already full? You say it doesn&#039;t happen that much. I work in a rural ED part time and I see it happen all the time. Has nothing to do with &quot;boarding&quot;. 

But you&#039;re on the right track of at least raising the questions and proposing solutions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have dishes in your sink? Holy shit. That is a telltale sign of a poorly run household.<br />
We should have your landlord come and investigate you.<br />
Insurance companies should come and review your homeowner&#8217;s policy &#8211; after all, sink dishes could cause a flood, which could start an electrical fire, which could burn down the entire apartment complex, injuring or killing every person on the city block.<br />
Obviously the problem is because you are trying to wash too many pots and pans which unjustly crowds out the kiddie cups and the cheap food storage containers. You really need to focus on the cheap dishes and shouldn&#8217;t wash pots nearly as much. Who cares if you can&#8217;t cook your food and eventually you have to leave your apartment? YOU HAVE DISHES IN THE SINK, DAMMIT!</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that the process involves three aspects of input, throughput, and output. However, you oversimplify the issues involving those three processes. </p>
<p>I work in a couple of different places and both of their departments become overcrowded for different reasons. </p>
<p>Viccellio&#8217;s study didn&#8217;t compare outcomes of ED boarded patients with outcomes of floor hallway patients. It compared patients in inpatient beds versus patients in inpatient hallways. A comparison of outcomes in what we&#8217;re trying to measure, including effects on patient flow in the ED and even the effects on hospital income would be a much better way to study the issue. Unfortunately, given the varying acuity of ED patients, the results would likely be difficult to interpret.<br />
Also, the study didn&#8217;t (and probably couldn&#8217;t) account for the &#8220;high maintenance&#8221; patients in the ED. Can&#8217;t really put vents, drips, monitors, psych patients, ect in a hallway. What do you do when your ED is full of these patients waiting for beds?  </p>
<p>What happens when the hospital doesn&#8217;t have sufficient staffing for the inpatient beds? Still cram patients on the floors and overwork the available nurses? When mistakes increase, then who gets blamed? Would you be OK with your mom being put in a hallway with two nurses trying to cover (and write electronic notes on) 24 patients? If not, why? What&#8217;s the maximum number of patients that should be covered per nurse? What if the patients are high-maintenance?<br />
What happens when nurses become fed up with being overworked and leave for another job. Then there are even fewer staff available to care for patients. Then what?<br />
What happens when six patients register to be seen in a small ED within 30 minutes of each other, the ED only has 6 beds, and 4 of them are already full? You say it doesn&#8217;t happen that much. I work in a rural ED part time and I see it happen all the time. Has nothing to do with &#8220;boarding&#8221;. </p>
<p>But you&#8217;re on the right track of at least raising the questions and proposing solutions.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteCoat</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117744</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteCoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many of your thoughts are very similar to mine. See my addendum to the post above.
Measuring overcrowding does nothing to solve the problem. Surge capacity protocols would be an excellent step in the right direction, but what happens when those protocols are overwhelmed? These are the questions we need to ask and answer.
Aligning incentives - another good solution. Before getting there, we have to dissect out the different incentives and see how they interact.
&quot;Rand can certainly do more to promote these solutions, and should.&quot; Another one of my points. Hopefully this post will serve as a wake-up call.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many of your thoughts are very similar to mine. See my addendum to the post above.<br />
Measuring overcrowding does nothing to solve the problem. Surge capacity protocols would be an excellent step in the right direction, but what happens when those protocols are overwhelmed? These are the questions we need to ask and answer.<br />
Aligning incentives &#8211; another good solution. Before getting there, we have to dissect out the different incentives and see how they interact.<br />
&#8220;Rand can certainly do more to promote these solutions, and should.&#8221; Another one of my points. Hopefully this post will serve as a wake-up call.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Trueger</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117591</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Trueger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 00:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[here are my thoughts on why crowding is a sign of poor hospital management (with the implication that &quot;good management&#039; = doing what&#039;s best for patients) http://mdaware.blogspot.com/2013/01/empty-dishwasher.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>here are my thoughts on why crowding is a sign of poor hospital management (with the implication that &#8220;good management&#8217; = doing what&#8217;s best for patients) <a href="http://mdaware.blogspot.com/2013/01/empty-dishwasher.html" rel="nofollow">http://mdaware.blogspot.com/2013/01/empty-dishwasher.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Myles Riner, MD</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117558</link>
		<dc:creator>Myles Riner, MD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ranting at Dr. Kellerman is no answer either.  Spending more money might make sense if we weren&#039;t already spending way to much money and getting not much for it, and if we weren&#039;t bankrupting the country in the process.  Now spending the money in a different way (prevention vs. treatment), or addressing the root causes of the boarding problem (like &#039;for profit&#039; health plans, fee-for-service medicine, overly aggressive end of life care, and lack of surge capacity protocols in many hospitals around the country, could make a difference.  California ACEP tried to get legislation passed to mandate frequent measurement of ER overcrowding and adoption of hospital-wide surge capacity protocols, but the hospital association killed it.  I don&#039;t know if this represents &#039;poor running of hospitals&#039; or hospitals trying to maximize revenues, or just tunnel-vision thinking, but it is not like there aren&#039;t good solutions out there, but they are overwhelmed by a misalignment (or mal-alignment) of incentives. 

Rand can certainly do more to promote these solutions, and should; and emergency physicians, as front line providers, need to keep pushing from the pit to encourage hospitals to do what they can do: but some of the wider cultural issues around health care that need to be changed in this country will be even more difficult to effect.  We will need well regarded physicians to lead this effort, and if you have heard Dr. Kellerman speak, you know he is pretty good at that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ranting at Dr. Kellerman is no answer either.  Spending more money might make sense if we weren&#8217;t already spending way to much money and getting not much for it, and if we weren&#8217;t bankrupting the country in the process.  Now spending the money in a different way (prevention vs. treatment), or addressing the root causes of the boarding problem (like &#8216;for profit&#8217; health plans, fee-for-service medicine, overly aggressive end of life care, and lack of surge capacity protocols in many hospitals around the country, could make a difference.  California ACEP tried to get legislation passed to mandate frequent measurement of ER overcrowding and adoption of hospital-wide surge capacity protocols, but the hospital association killed it.  I don&#8217;t know if this represents &#8216;poor running of hospitals&#8217; or hospitals trying to maximize revenues, or just tunnel-vision thinking, but it is not like there aren&#8217;t good solutions out there, but they are overwhelmed by a misalignment (or mal-alignment) of incentives. </p>
<p>Rand can certainly do more to promote these solutions, and should; and emergency physicians, as front line providers, need to keep pushing from the pit to encourage hospitals to do what they can do: but some of the wider cultural issues around health care that need to be changed in this country will be even more difficult to effect.  We will need well regarded physicians to lead this effort, and if you have heard Dr. Kellerman speak, you know he is pretty good at that.</p>
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		<title>By: Retired because of this kind of crap.</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117510</link>
		<dc:creator>Retired because of this kind of crap.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 07:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117510</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And the EMR and CPOE, both federal mandates, cut patient flow rates through the ED by 1/3 to 1/2. Like many of the worst problems in the United States, dysfunctional EDs are largely due to bad federal policy. Get the feds and their minions, the Joint Commission, of our backs and put doctors and nurses back in charge of medical care -- things will get better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the EMR and CPOE, both federal mandates, cut patient flow rates through the ED by 1/3 to 1/2. Like many of the worst problems in the United States, dysfunctional EDs are largely due to bad federal policy. Get the feds and their minions, the Joint Commission, of our backs and put doctors and nurses back in charge of medical care &#8212; things will get better.</p>
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		<title>By: Birdstrike</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117449</link>
		<dc:creator>Birdstrike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 22:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;suggestions for improvement – such as spending more money to increase the number of doctors and nurses in the emergency departments, spending more money to expand the number of beds, and spending more money to provide home care services.&quot;

Why &quot;spend more money&quot; to improve the system when there is another solution that costs nothing: Tell the EPs and nurses to see more patients faster, or lose their contract and their job.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;suggestions for improvement – such as spending more money to increase the number of doctors and nurses in the emergency departments, spending more money to expand the number of beds, and spending more money to provide home care services.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why &#8220;spend more money&#8221; to improve the system when there is another solution that costs nothing: Tell the EPs and nurses to see more patients faster, or lose their contract and their job.</p>
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		<title>By: Torgrim</title>
		<link>http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/01/art-kellerman-rand-rant/#comment-117431</link>
		<dc:creator>Torgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 20:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/?p=9042#comment-117431</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The doctor shook his head. It was all he could do, under the circumstances, and he did it well.&quot; (Charles Dickens)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The doctor shook his head. It was all he could do, under the circumstances, and he did it well.&#8221; (Charles Dickens)</p>
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